So give us your sense of Contepomi and, uh, why you think Leinster have gone after him, and do you think he's a good fit?

Yeah, look, I think obviously having played for Leinster, um, he knows the club intricately well.

He understands the, the Irish system, which, um, requires a, a significant am- amount of navigating as, as a coach because you're managing a huge amount of international players.

You've got to go deep into your squad for large parts of the season, and then you're managing player minutes, you know, post-November, post-Six Nations, leading into the World Cup.

This year is what Leo Cullen's gonna be dealing with.

But on any given year, it, it, it is a real challenge and, you know, bringing in someone like Scott Robertson, who wouldn't necessarily have that kind of deep understanding, could get frustrated with it, similar to how the likes of Matt O'Connor would have, uh, during his tenure.

Um, I think a big thing for Leinster is, like, style of play, and Felipe certainly embodies that.

That's the right direction.

Our defense is holding us back.

Yeah, it, it is.

And, like, I, I'm gonna talk through, if you don't mind, just, just one passage of play.

Just ...

And look, I'm not a defense coach, but I've sat in enough meetings to know what good looks like.

Um, and it was the, the try, the first try that New Zealand get.

Um, so there's a line out on the 45, 45 yards out from the New Zealand try line.

Yeah.

A new New Zealand under Dave Rennie, what have you made of them? And is this an anxious Ian Madigan looking at this, or excitement? Like, are [laughs] are Ireland capable of delivering an England performance like they did at Twickenham, and will that be enough, is my point, or is this a different beast?

Yeah, it, it's been really interesting listening to the, the snippets coming out of the camp during the week, and I think it, it is a big challenge for, for Andy Farrell, um, because this squad has, has played a lot of rugby.

You think back to the Lions tour and players like Dan Sheehan, like they've had a long season, and it's really important to, as a head coach, that you find something that's gonna really motivate the group, and that's a real strength of Andy Farrell's.

And I think we got a, a, a taste of what's happening inside the camp with what he was saying to the media, and trying to be the, the first, um, a- and creating that really special atmosphere within the group.

It would be a, a hell of an achievement to, to win in Eden Park, to think that we'd be breaking a, a 52-game winning streak.

Um, it is slightly difficult to get a handle on where New Zealand are at.

Look, they had a great performance against France, albeit without the Toulouse, um, players and a couple of the Montpellier players being available.

I suppose the term wide wide's fair enough, but will go round them or actually will Savea and a couple of those front row forwards [laughs] go through them, too? And this is an Irish team without Doris, Porter, and, uh, Jack Crowley, and a few others as well.

It is, for all the issues with the performance, it's a brilliant win away in Sydney.

No, it, it really is, and that resolve, you look back to when things didn't go well against South Africa th- in November, the resolve that we showed to hang in there in that game, y- you could tell that Farrell was really gonna tap, tap into that and, and use it going forward.

When myself and Keith were on the show last week, y- I think we said with reasonable-- well, with confidence that we thought Ireland would win.

Now, what I did say is I said for Ireland to lose, I think a lot has to go wrong.

I didn't, I didn't think it was unthinkable that Ireland could, uh, could lose.

Um, I mean, you've covered some of it off already, like the, the lineout didn't function for large parts of the game.

The scrum was under pressure i- in particular in that second half.

... that was 30 in the first half, by the way, of that 36.

Um, strong, Ian?

Yeah, it is a strong team.

Um, obviously a couple of injuries leading into it with, you know, the likes of D'Arcy and Tommy O'Brien and James Lowe unavailable, but when you see that starting 15 on paper, it is a very strong team.

Um, I like the speed and, and the balance in the back line.

Um, Balogun obviously coming back in.

Keenan will, will, will offer a lot at full back.

McCloskey coming back in with his offloading game.

What, what's your, your reservation with him, as a last one on it?

Yeah

... to Guy up north.

Now, every club is gonna be slightly different and have nuances within it.

When we talk about Leinster, and it's actually refreshing to be able to do this without having to defend Leo because we, we all look ...

Because I'm just saying it that this is how it is.

Like, we all look at Leinster, and we count the number of internationals and the number of Lions players from last summer, and you think, "Well, this team should be winning the URC and the Champions Cup every year." But you don't, like, you don't necessarily explain the nuances with the job.

So the pressure to bring schoolboys and club players, um, through the system, academy players getting capped.

so he, he can play 13, but I think 12 is where he preferred to p- play, but he's, he's, he's well able for 13, even though he hasn't had the minutes.

How difficult will the challenge be for Leinster trying to contain such a potent Bordeaux attack, particularly with temperatures of 28, 29 degrees, even higher?

Yeah, these Bordeaux guys will be much more used to those high temperatures, especially when they're going through a normal pre-season.

It's temperatures like that and even higher.

The Bordeaux game plan is really about absorbing a huge amount of pressure.

And then they target certain breakdowns, turn the ball over, and then it's very simple.

They move the ball to their speed guys, the likes of Pennault and Bielbary and Reassi.

And once you get the ball in their hands, they're really dangerous and they can... beat you with footwork, speed, offloads.

What would rounding off the season with silverware do for this Ulster group under Richie Murphy?

So to that point I asked Rod earlier, are they timing something here? Or do you feel it's still not right or as right as it should be going into a final?

Uh, no, I'd definitely be in the camp that the momentum is building.

Um, I noticed a step change in their attack post the Six Nations against the Scarlets.

It kind of turned.

They started moving the, the point of contact, getting the ball into the wide channels.

You were seeing the forwards tipping the ball inside and outside, much more deception in their game, and that's progressed consistently since then.

Um, there hasn't been a complete performance against, uh, quality opposition just yet.

[laughs]

Tommy O- Tommy O'Brien's gone out of his way to cut you down at the ankles here.

Yeah.

Look, it was, that was, uh, a real low point for me.

I think I, I did pride myself on not throwing too many intercepts, and that was largely down to, you know, assessing the option and then executing on it.

The ball just didn't come out of my hand cleanly.

Um, I actually think it, it may even have gone marginally forward out of my hand.

It was, it was, it was a big deluge of rain before we played, and the ball was kinda slippy throughout the game.

Has that continued over the subsequent few weeks since we last spoke?

So [lips smack] uh, that's an extraordinary, uh, sequence of intercept tries.

Yeah.

I got-- Being honest, I was on the floor on fifty-five minutes.

I was doing commentary with, [chuckles] uh, with Ryan Moed and John Barclay.

Ryan had to pick me, pick me back up.

I-- It, it just had that feeling.

It's like, is it happening again?Now I, I still had confidence that Leinster would be able to close the game out, but they had to strategically change what they were doing.

What about general play?

Like, how much do you like Feinberg-Mgazulu, and how valuable do you think Pollard's attributes are to still actually winning, say, a World Cup for South Africa versus what Am Mgazulu brings, which is a lot of playmaking but maybe not that level of control?

Yeah, I, I think the, the difference between the two is, like, Pollard's low bar.

A- and when I s- say that, I mean a bad game from, for him is probably down at, like, a seven or an eight out of 10.

There's not a whole lot that can go wrong.

His, his goal kicking's metronomic, kicking out of hand, really good passer of the ball, um, rock solid defender.

He w- he wouldn't have the agility, um, or s- top-end speed that, that Mgazulu would have.

Um, but that consistency, and look, when you're in a World Cup semifinal or final, maybe you don't need the X factor to win, and that's where he could still be the guy.

They brought a strong team, and Glasgow just absolutely shredded them.

If someone said, "Ian Madigan's there for the taking," to what extent do you think that is gonna be used by the Irish team? To what extent is that a factor in this at all?

Well, first off, I, I really like it from him.

You know, and, and I, I really like some of the other snippets that came out, and, and quite often you're seeing now that it's the post, post-game interviews of where players aren't media briefed, and they're still kind of elated from, from the win.

And, um, too, Pilato spoke after the game, and, and he said that Gregor said to the team that France aren't gonna be within touching distance if we impose our game on them.

It's not even gonna be close, was-- Now, I'm not exactly quoting him, but you're getting a sense of the confidence from within the camp.

Um, look, I'd say if, if Darcy Graham had his opportunity again, would he change the wording a little bit? Yeah, he probably would.

But is he right in what he's, he's saying? I, I think, I think there is definitely an element of truth in it.

[laughs]

Expand on your point about the Irish defence there, because after Paris, you felt there was confusion in the ranks.

Yeah.

And I was struggling to see our identity after the first two rounds.

The difference at the weekend was we're good footballers and that is a point of difference.

And when I say that from a defensive point of view, it's when do you counter-rook? When do you decide to go for a poach? When do you decide to cut your cloth and go, we're under a bit of stress here.

We need to just lose a few meters, but stay connected and we'll get them on the next phase.

Or this is a good opportunity to get up off the line and get high.

I

Did you feel he's been lacking confidence for Leinster in the build-up to the Six Nations?

Yeah, I do, but there's still been parts of his game that have been really good as well.

We said about his defence, when you go up the levels, whether it's Champions Cup or into international rugby, in particular the Six Nations, you're coming up against better athletes, better coaches, better tacticians.

Their ability to expose your weaknesses just goes up and we're seeing that through the Six Nations.

France did it particularly well, getting him moving laterally, challenging him on his inside.

Any opportunity Italy had to get their hands on him at the weekend, they took it.

If he was beside a rook, whack him.

But has our opinion of England changed after the weekend? What's your big takeaway?

Do you regret that? Is that the best thing you ever did? Why did you go? Were you unhappy at Leinster? Were you getting fed up with it?

I don't regret it.

I'd be strong-willed, similar to Luke, in the sense that every decision I make, if I'm the one who's made it, it's the right one for me and I will make it work.

Small part of me still looks back and the Grand Slam that was won in 2018, could you have been part of that? Could you have been part of the 2019 World Cup? But you can't live two lives.

The grass isn't always greener on the other side.

You know, great experience living in France.

The journey I was on in Bristol, loved the end of my career in Ulsters.

So what does that mean, just down to us?

A poached team is trying to actually get their hands on the ball.

Exactly.

And the difference is with the poach, you have a split second to get on the ball.

You've either won the space or you haven't.

But if you haven't, you're cleared out within a second.

Whereas if you're a counter-rook team, the goal is to drive over the other side of the rook and present the ball for your own scrum half.

That doesn't happen too often, but that's the best possible outcome.

know i was trying to think like give me six other players of timonese kind of vibe i can mention and i was like i don't have any i want them to be there but i don't

But how do you think the Irish teams are actually adapting to the way rugby has gone in the last while?

Yeah, there definitely is frustration from the Irish players.

I know James Lowe came out and spoke a couple of weeks ago.

It's interesting, quite often the best interviews come after games because there's not as much media briefing and it's still a bit raw and you can sense the frustration from Tide there.

And Munster wanted to play and that was indicative in the stats in the sense that they had 50% more possession than Leinster did.

And of the two teams that won at the weekend, they both had 50% less possession in Leinster and Ulster.

So on your question of how do I think the Irish teams have adapted to the law changes, they've been incremental.

It hasn't been the immediate bounce maybe people would have expected or hoped for.

But nonetheless, there was like this great sense of... what's going to happen here? You know, can Munster put it up to them? And then, Ian, where do you want to start in that first 18 minutes when Munster found themselves 18-0 down?

Yeah, you touched on it there.

Three really big losses to the starting team in Clyne, Milner and Crowley.

In particular with the conditions, it was always going to be conducive to having a bit of ballast up front and Clyne in particular would have got you to go for a ball but also in the scrum, adding that extra weight in the second row as we saw how that game played out.

Munster didn't help themselves and it got away from them really quickly.

It's a law that I'm not a massive fan of is when you give away a penalty as a try is being scored.

The try is scored, you've got your seven points and then the player ends up in the bin.

In Word on the 210s?

Where do you think it is in 25? Where is it for you?

Yeah, like loads in it, Joe.

I think, you know, starting off, I think Leo Cullen summed it up well.

He was interviewed after the Dragons game and he views the group stages as a seeding exercise.

And, you know, Rudd, you touched on it there.

Toulouse got caught out with that last year.

They didn't get a bonus point win away to the Sharks.

But before we do that, Ian, your reaction to the interview? Did you, you know, former player, you know, that sense whether they might not like the look of it? What did you make of what he said?

I didn't see anybody predicting this.

No, and on reflection, Joe McCarthy you touched on there has been a big loss, both in open play, but it's also in the scrum.

He's the tight head lock.

The fall guy at the weekend for Ireland was the loose head side.

Porter was consistently penalised, and then when Paddy came on, it was very similar.

But the scrum as a system... it's across the front row where the hooker has a responsibility and the tight head has a responsibility to keep the pressure off the loose head side.

And when you're coming up against a dominant scrum, and look, this isn't my area, and I spoke to James Tracy on it, and he was explaining to me that the hooker has that responsibility as does the tight head, but it's also the power and strength coming from the second row.

That is a shocking mistake.

When Farrell says he gets rugby.

Yes, and it was actually interesting.

I was at the game and I was watching his backfield cover because he hasn't played loads at 15.

He's played a bit there for Connacht and he's played well without being amazingly good.

And there's a couple of areas going into the game that I thought he could get exposed.

He's not a top, top kicker out of hand.

He doesn't have the length of some of the, like Ramos, for example, who'd be one of the best kickers.

So to what extent do you make South Africa favourites and

And like Doris at seven, that's two positional switches, I think, that can really inject something into a kind of a flailing Irish team and give them just a bit of impetus going into that World Cup cycle that's coming.

Yeah, I'm really excited about it.

I was hoping that he would be the 15 going into this group of games.

I was really disappointed when he got injured.

I was hoping to see Osborne really play in the centre.

Not that Osborne's played poorly, but look, he's injured now.

Let's focus on Hansen, the man who's in possession of the shirt.

What

So talk to us.

Yeah, and you mentioned it there about England doubling down on it.

And I know we don't want to see kick tennis, but this is slightly different to kick tennis.

Kick tennis is more kicking long to each other, hoping that the opposition makes a mistake or puts in a poor kick or kicks it out in the full and then that gives you a set piece in their half.

The kicking contestable is different because when you win an oncoming kick, it's arguably the best platform to attack from in the game now because you're attacking against a retreating defense.

The backfield has lost its shape.

Your team are coming onto the ball and that should be a really exciting opportunity for a team to attack.

Give us your take on what you saw from the attack on Saturday.

Anyway, the undercooked point, Ian, and as part of it, like in your experience, the extent to which two really kind of borderline full contact sessions can get you up to speed.

they'll definitely help and I think ultimately what Andy Farrell has made the decision there that the Irish team is going to get more out of those sessions than for example playing another URC game the chat out of the New Zealand camp is like our structures are in place defensive attacking set piece we just need to tweak things and that's what you'd expect at this stage of the season they've played nine games and they've had a pretty good season like you know played 9-1-7 albeit France sent over kind of their second stringers during the summer but it's still a very good they have such a deep squad and so many quality players coming out of the top 14 that they still challenged New Zealand in those games Two disappointing fixtures.

They lost to Argentina for the first time in New Zealand and then it was the second half in the game against Wellington after beating South Africa in Eden Park the week before.

It was like a draw game or close to it at half time and then South Africa came out second half and really turned the screw and blew New Zealand apart.

The game finished 40 odd points to 10 and you know they lost the aerial battle they lost the battle at set piece physically were dominated and that left a deep scar and then full credit to New Zealand they bounced back and against a kind of reinvigorated Australian side you know beat them reasonably comprehensively in the final two games of the rugby championship but the chat is we just need to make tweaks That's not what Ireland are saying.

This is the first time they've really been together since the Six Nations and before that with Andy Farrell.

The concern about being undercooked, it's a hard metric to measure.

It's amazing seeing him out of context.

And that period is really impressive from an attacking point of view.

Yeah, it was.

And we look at all the stats across the board and there's certain stats that used to be more relevant than they are now.

For me, the four key stats in a game of rugby are the speed of your ruck ball.

So what speed can you have it when you're attacking? You want it as quick as possible.

What speed are you giving the opposition? Munster did that really well.

They slowed Leinster's ball down, yet they were able to get quick ruck ball when they needed it.

In your perspective on that dynamic in the second half, where it was for large portions of it, Leinster camped and Munster very successfully in the main, but defending with their backs against the wall.