Mm

... two weeks of, of serialization in The Sunday Times.

And then r- sort of leaping ahead, the Windsor Fire.

You can cope with something like the Windsor Fire because the journos had a, a grandstand view of what was happening, what the firefighters were doing.

But when you've got a government minister coming out the day after-

Mm

... "get a- tell Her Majesty to get seated." And I said, "No." He said, "I beg your par- It's not your garden party.

If HM wants a picture, she'll tell the Master, the Master will tell me, and I'll get it organized." And with that he slammed the phone down.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and until such time any investigation takes place in the United States, he's going to continue feeling like that.

Yes, he's, um, he is now exiled to Sandringham.

He's free to travel wherever he goes, but so far he hasn't traveled anywhere.

Um, he's leading, we are led to believe, a little bit of a social life with people in the Norfolk area who kind of feel sorry for him and have known him for years, and feel that, you know, maybe there is smoke, where there's smoke there is fire.

But there's an element of innocence as well.

So they are attempting to entertain him, and he seems to be coping with that.

[laughs]

This is a silly question, but I think it's important for the audience to know, the American audience to know, do they audition these people that ch- they're going to engage with, or are we watching authentic, genuine moments when she's sitting there working with some of these individuals?

You're wa- you're watching very genuine moments, and I'll give you an e- an example.

Years and years ago, Diana went to a- a residential home for blind people, and I was there.

I was reporting at the time.

And on her way out, there were two people sitting in the entrance hall.

There was a man and a woman.

She stopped to talk to the woman and then stopped to talk to the man, and his eyes were welling up.

This feels odd to me.

Pick, picking up on what Trisha was saying, what is their lane? What should they be trying to do as public/private citizens right now?

Well, first of all, I wouldn't work for them, but, um ...

No, sorry about that.

[laughs] Uh, but I will say this, um, yes, I, I headed global business development at KPMG worldwide, and what I'm still proud about is the scandals I kept KPMG out of that none of you have ever heard of and no one has.

And what I would advise the Sussexes, first of all, hypocritical Harry needs to stop being hypocritical.

One of the things he declared years ago- ... was his love for Africa.

If, and it's too late now, if they had gone to Africa, if they'd helped local people there, and/or if they'd done exactly what the Queen had wanted and was sort of the life plan, and actually even Princess Diana wanted Harry to be supportive of his brother.

Oh, well, I wanted to know what your biggest scoop was in the book.

loveAnd how was it working for the Prince of Wales, and indeed his mother, the late Queen Elizabeth II?

Well, working for the Prince of Wales, I was often asked, uh, will he make a good king? And I said, "Well, he's a damn good Prince of Wales.

There's no reason why he won't make a very good king." Uh, and he was good at his job.

He was very good with young people.

It's interesting how young people are not showing any interest in the monarchy, and yet he, with his Prince's Trust, helped countless thousands of them, even helping them to get a foot on the work ladder, get a, a home, a, start up a business with soft loans from the Prince's Trust.

So I think the, the, the surveys are getting it slightly wrong.

But let's move on from that.

It's difficult, isn't it, to keep younger generations on side, Dickie?

Can you give us a little rundown of your top hits of things that you have lived through and helped them survive?

Well, I suppose the biggest thing I lived through was the annus horribilis in 1992, uh, when anything that could go wrong did go wrong, and it went wrong for 12 months, uh, culminating not only in the, uh, separation of Charles and Diana, but the Windsor fire, when an MP, uh, Peter Brooke, who was then Secretary of State for Culture, Media, and Sport, having been briefed not to say anything, because we weren't hiding anything, we just didn't know the extent of the fire, how it was gonna be, uh, restored, what the cost would be.

He went out, first question from a camera, a, a, a reporter on television, "Who's gonna pay for it?" "The government will pay." And from then on for weeks, the Queen was castigated, uh, because there were all sorts of comments.

Every newspaper was having a go.

Why should the public pay for it? It so happened that at the end of the day, Queen decided to open Buckingham Palace.

Um, 27 million of the 35 million was paid for out of visitor admissions to the palace and to Windsor Castle.

So, you know, it, it was hard at the beginning, but it was soft at, at, at the end.

How did you deal with it? [laughs]

Do you believe Harry sacrificed the life he wanted in order to preserve his marriage? And, you know, is he getting his way now, now that he's back in the UK?

I think Mary ma- Harry made a decision.

He, he met somebody he wanted to marry.

He, he had two failed relationships, one with Chelsy Davy, uh, who was a Zimbabwean who introduced him to, to the African continent.

Um, and her father was, wa- was in game parks, so he, he learnt about game very, very early on.

When I say game, I mean wild animals.

And he loved it, but the relationship didn't last because Chelsy was studying at university to become a lawyer.

Hilton for the stay.

But Kinsey alluded to the fact that they are, there are certain sources that are suggesting that this letter, um, that was issued, uh, Megxit means Megxit letter, was, was it a way to tell RAVEC, to persuade RAVEC, to remind them that the Sussexes are private individuals and shouldn't have taxpayers' money? Was it the King and the royal household trying to torpedo Harry's bid for a taxpayer-funded armed security?

Well, I don't believe for a moment it was the, the King telling RAVEC, uh, what to do because, uh, it had no authority.

Uh, it's nothing to do with him.

It's an offshoot of, of the home office.

It's responsible to the home office, but it's a standalone organization.

RAVEC will make the decision based on the, any security threat.

Now, Harry has already bespoke security.

Mm.

There

was an occasion when at a meeting with Dinah after she separated, we had a weekly meeting with her private secretary, and she said she wanted to have a reception for the England football team.

I said, why? They lost.

And before she could even respond, I said, if you have a reception for a losing England football team, you're going to have to have it for every England team that loses.

Do you want to be seen as a loser? And she sort of thought about it for a couple of seconds and said, yeah, I think you're right.

And then she wouldn't talk to me for two weeks.

She cancelled me, but then came back.

What's the biggest myth about Diana that you'd like to correct?

I think that factors into people's emotions.

Yeah, well, the thing is, it depends on which newspaper you read.

There are some newspapers say there should be reconciliation, certainly with his brother William.

There are other newspapers say there shouldn't be.

The great British public, they're angry about what happened, about the Oprah Winfrey interview, about the six hours of Netflix mocking Queen Elizabeth.

and also his allegations in spare.

And their memories are still very raw about all these allegations.

You watching across the Atlantic, where didn't Harry and Meghan connect with the American public?

Do you believe that we should finance it, the British taxpayer, their security?

Well, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

The thing is that Harry is a prince of the United Kingdom.

He is the son of the king.

He has made some stupid comments, like in his book Spare, saying he killed 25 Taliban.

So, yes, they want retribution.

So there's probably and there was a threat against him.

They've never done anything in my mind that hasn't been for either a reaction or to score points or whatever.

Um, what does your gut tell you the ultimate reason for the return is?

Well, everybody's got an opinion.

As I said a moment ago, Harry's primary reason is Invictus.

He wants a hands-on in part of the organization for Invictus in Birmingham next year in July.

He's got 11 months to work on it, and he wants to work on it.

He hasn't had so much of a hands-on in the past, but because it is in his own home country, he feels that he is entitled, if I can use that word, to have more of a hands-on.

Uh, and at the same time, it's an opportunity for the children to taste the whole ethos of British schooling.

Yeah

Is that true, and does that distinction actually change how the royal family behaves there or how protective they are of it?

Balmoral is owned by the monarch, is owned by, by the Queen.

Uh, it was owned by the Queen.

It's now owned by Charles.

It was bought by Queen Victoria and Prince Albert around about 1852.

Um, the...

And Balmoral was not the original house.

But it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Mm

... crawling all over her.

I'm not terribly sure had she been alive that Harry would've ended up in California.

She would've put her foot down on that one.

Uh, she might well have ...

Harry wouldn't have even met Meghan Markle, he would've been meeting all sorts of nice English girls.

Um, but it didn't happen.

I mean, we're, uh, just a few days out from this trip, and they don't know whether or not they're going to be hosting a family of four? I mean, this is not the Holiday Inn.

I'm glad to hear that

... than, than youngsters generally.

Uh, as I said earlier, youngsters come here thinking London streets are paved with gold and find out that they're not.

Uh, they leave home for all sorts of reasons, but there, there, there are elderly, uh, uh, uh, street sleepers as well, and they're not veterans.

But veterans are particularly well looked after.

There are a number of organizations, one of them which is, is the B- Royal British Legion, which is very active, uh, in, in providing accommodation for, for veterans and looking after them, and Help for Heroes is another one.

But, uh, young people coming into London are finding it very difficult.

So sweet.

The focus is supposed to be on Michael Jackson"?

No, I think television has got to be honest, and these days, uh, there's, there's a big question mark over television's honesty.

I mean, you look at the Netflix series of The Crown, it was entertainment.

It wasn't honest, but it was entertainment based on events of the day.

And I think the Michael Jackson, uh, uh, documentary, uh, was not honest.

The fact that they used Martin Bashir, um, who jumped before he was pushed, uh, there's nothing unhealthy about him, but it's amazing what money does.

Money talks, uh, and he needs it, and he needs lots of it, so Netflix came with a checkbook, uh, and he did their bidding.

it, it is a little startling.

Mm

... because, because of her father's illness she was thrust into doing his duties, um, as well as her own, and then he died tragically in, in 1952, a, a very sick man.

And at 25 she was thrust into a job that just didn't give her time with her children, and yet 10 w- 10 years down the road she had that quality time with Andrew and Edward, and that was one of her regrets, that she didn't have it with the first part of the family.

And, uh, William knows this, he, he knows the history of, of his grandmother and, and knows the history of his parents.

Look, his parents didn't have the time, the quality time that they would've wanted to spend with, with William and Harry because the, the, the royals were thin on the ground.

They were in demand to do the job, more so, uh, Charles because he was heir to the throne.

So they didn't have that same quality time that perhaps they would've wanted, and William is not falling into that same trap.

Yes.

Uh, scary times we're living in.

They are scary times, and when you think of what happened to the, uh, White House Correspondents' Dinner, it was a public hotel, Hilton Hotel in Washington.

Anybody got access.

It seems to me that security was a bit lax there.

I think the problem what you find with, uh, Sandringham, and An- and, uh, Charlie will attest to this, there's a lot of public right of way.

The public are allowed onto the estate for leisure activities, to walk, to cycle, uh, and what have you, and i- it's very easy.

And if Andrew had strayed into a public area, yes, he's gonna be confronted by some nutter who wants to have a go at him.

That's a-

Am I just glass half full kinda gal, or did you take, get this, a similar takeaway from his, his speech?

I got the sim- I got a similar takeaway, and I think Ralph is absolutely right.

Uh, there was no political message there.

Uh, the message was, as everybody is saying at the moment, we are living in a troublesome world.

Uh, he wasn't poi- pointing a finger at any one particular area.

Um, you've gotta be blind or partially sighted not to know that we're in a troublesome world, and he just made reference to that.

It would've been very strange had he not made reference to that, but he did, and we, we accept that.

Uh, Dickie, explain an embargo to me, and do the public, or do, do- does the media have to abide by an embargo for two people that are not working royals?

But, you know, it is fair for some people to question the timing, considering how intense things have been in the United States, or at least coming from the White House as of late.

I suppose any visit to President Trump is going to be controversial, given the period that we're living in, this sort of conflict with Iran, with the help of Israel, so-called peace at the moment, that is it on, is it off, or whatever? And yes, it's going to be controversial among certain groups of politicians.

But at the end of the day, the king is a head of state, but as a constitutional head of state, he has no political power.

And he really does as his prime minister tells him to do.

The prime minister wants him in America, a bit of soft diplomacy in the hope that relations improve.

But with Donald Trump's other hat as a political head of state, it's not going to improve until there is a meeting of minds between Trump and Starmer.

There's always going to be a meeting of minds between Trump and Charles.

I mean, and I think it was in The Times in a piece about the Princess of Wales where they did say that Prince William was concerned about Andrew's mental health and that he wasn't necessarily this monster he's being made out to be that was trying to cut him off with his head, but he was concerned about how he was going to function in life with all of these titles removed believing that they needed to be removed still worried about how he was going to function properly um this is this is a terrible situation and i think you were the first person to say it in my presence that you know unfortunately the king inherited and we have a lot of these glowing books coming out and i love queen elizabeth ii but Are you seeing in any of these new books that are being released that anyone is saying someone should have done some someone should have taken charge of the Andrew situation earlier?

What stood out to you visually as we received images and video of this visit?

I think the most important thing that stood out was the king's recognition of Ramadan.

Ramadan actually finishes today.

And in recognizing Ramadan, because the president is a Muslim, Nigeria is largely Muslim, and arriving yesterday as he did, there was no normal state visit lunch which would normally take place because Muslims fast during the day.

So it was his recognition of Islam.

It was his recognition of Islam during his speech.

I think the point that he made was basically no good dwelling on the past.

What was your reaction to this?

don't feel rectified?

Well, if he's been extended an invitation by President Trump, which it would appear that he has been extended an invitation and accepted, it would be very difficult to back out of it unless the government stepped in and said in negotiation with President Trump that the situation at the moment is not right for a royal visit.

Trump gets a lot out of these royal visits.

He's had two state visits to the UK.

He's loved every minute of it.

First one, he met the late Queen, the second one with Charles, and he'll revel in any visit made by King Charles III and Queen Camilla.

But the government will have to watch this very carefully, how far the exposure goes, how much vitriol is pumped towards the king.

Do you agree or disagree?

And so it's the perfect match.

It's interesting what you say there, Hugo, because the 1969 film about the royal family, it was good for its day because in the 60s, the royal family were sort of fairly boring and people sort of scratched their heads.

What do they do? So the plan was to make this documentary, show the royal family at work and at play, and people got a better understanding that, yeah, they do things that we do.

I mean, you don't barbecue in a suit, which... is what they do, but they do the sort of things that we do.

So it was good for its day.

But if you try and produce something like that today, you'd get laughed at.

But now what you've got today is documentaries being made about climate change, about the environment, about animal welfare.

But because the royal family is surrounded by these people that just know the game and they know how to include the royal family without... cheapening the brand or weakening their credibility they are producing really good content do you when you watch queen camilla talk about domestic violence do you feel that way too like she has the right people around her to help her navigate something as as um as sensitive as this

Dickie, were they trying to distract from the fact that some people blamed them for her death because there were photographers chasing her that night?

I think it was an element of that.

Interesting you say photographers chasing her.

Up until Diana's death, the media, the British media, they bought paparazzi pictures.

It didn't matter how they got them.

They bought them.

After the death of Diana, Princess of Wales, and an inquiry, they stopped buying pictures.

Already?

As a... consumer let's just pretend i like them enough to purchase something from them it takes all credibility is thrown out the window when i see that you never are asked tough questions and you tap dance to ensure that you're but wait from the palace perspective would you say you would only give prince william to somebody that you know is going to be gentle with him

No, gentle doesn't come into it.

Really? You know, if you're going to be up against an interviewer, then you've got to be prepared to answer all the questions.

In my day before I became a courtier, I was a broadcast journalist, and I interviewed...

I mean, I'll give you an example.

I went to interview Prince Philip on one occasion.

Now, on that particular day, I had received in the Post the latest edition of the Worldwide Fund for Nature newspaper, in which the headline story was about third world countries paying off WWF bribes in order to turn a blind eye to poaching.

Are they frustrated right now? Are they disappointed? Could you walk me through what might be happening behind the scenes?