And so why put her in that uncomfortable position of attacking certain members of the British royal family?

Well, I don't think that that was foremost in his mind, and I think that the reason that he didn't, um, tell his sisters was because...

Well, what he said, of course, was, as I also watched that interview, that he didn't, uh, want them to contribute or to try and edit him in any way.

In some ways, I suppose, being charitable, if you don't tell people about it, it makes it easier.

They can say, "Well, I knew nothing about it either." And that seems to be in his, his, uh, policy.

Uh, and we know he, he does that sort of thing because very wisely, uh, the one bit which I thought was particularly interesting in the book was when he went to Westminster Abbey for the rehearsal and was about to think he w- would have to read his speech and then realized there were some figures lurking and, uh, and that they might well have, uh, prevented him from doing it.

So he very sensibly, [laughs] in my view, he, he decided he, he hadn't brought it with him, although he had got a couple of copies in his pocket, and, um, just read something from a hymn book instead so that he could get away with it on the day.

I don't know what you think about, uh, his, his allegations, Hugo.

Mm.

That to some extent it was why I believe he was t- very depressed for weeks afterwards by that.

And, uh, you know, he would have so many other considerations to be thinking about at that particular moment.

I, I, I agree with you.

And, and where I think this account is, is a bit sort of crazy in a way is that I do remember at one time when things were really, really bad, um, a friend of, a friend of his who's also a friend of mine, one of th- another of the Queen Mother's ladies in waiting actually, saw him, um, at a private e- engagement, and he was standing forlornly I think by the drinks tray in a drawing room.

And she said to him, went over and said to him, "Don't worry, you know, it will all pass." And his reaction was, "No, it won't." And she's always said to me he was absolutely right.

It hasn't.

I mean, Hugo, I, I suspect you agree with him when it comes to, to that commentary.

Why do they think that they have any power in this situation?

Well, that's exactly what I was going to say.

I mean, what, what is there to be clarified? The point is, the point has been made.

There's nothing in it which is new that we didn't already know.

It's just a re- uh, a salutary reminder of, of the agreement that was made, and that has to be, um, now enforced, I suppose.

And I suspect what's happened is that lord lieutenants and certain other people have s- got in touch with the palace and said maybe, you know, "I'm a bit worried that Prince Harry might get in touch with us, and what, how, how do we respond? I mean, do we, what, what do we do?" And, um, so that's why the letter was written.

There's nothing to clarify about it, or you can argue against it if you want to, but that's, the agreement has been made.

Um, so does that strike you as arrogant too, that they would immediately throw the security thing out there to, you know, saying that the King is jeopardizing their potential security yet again?

What say you?

I rather agree with you.

But I wonder how much they are actually returning.

The idea is obviously that the children should go to school here.

And I kind of understand that because I think English education is a good thing to have, probably safer to be in an English school than an American school.

I'm not a great expert on American schools.

But I wonder whether it's really much more than that.

It seems their popularity has absolutely plummeted.

Mm.

So she was disappointed on two levels, but you know, in, in a way, it made her life, and she was a very good queen and support for George VI.

Obviously, for the Queen Elizabeth II- She realized at that point, after 10 years of thinking she was just going to be a member of the family, that whoops, you know, she's gonna be queen one day.

It also had a knock-on effect for, for example, his other brother, the Duke of Gloucester, who was wanted to command his regiment.

He had to come back for, early from Australia.

He was regent designate and all sorts of things, and they had to do royal duties when they'd have preferred to be, you know, soldiering and things.

So a, a lot of people suffered from it.

[laughs]

No, I do

... uh, and I would just say this, that, uh, I live in a sort of slight atmosphere of chaos, and one day I picked up a copy of Hello! Magazine that was lying on the floor, and there was a picture of Prince Harry smiling and grinning and looking really happy, and I thought, "Hang on a minute, what's all this about?" Then I looked at the date, 2015, i.e.

pre-Meghan.

In my view, he's always looked incredibly unhappy ever since he got involved with her.

Um, um, and, and, you know, I think the, the- they're always trying to reinvent themselves, and one thing goes on for another, so if it's a court case or it's a, her cutting up, um, petals and scattering them on the salads and the things that she does, it's all very tiresome.

And I, I was dreading this whole week of him coming to London anyway, because the moment he appears, um, it becomes a sort of contradiction with the British royal family who are working for United Kingdom and Commonwealth, whereas he and his wife are working for themselves.

And so it's always whatever he's doing b- takes on a great, um, import.

Meanwhile, sources close to Harry are even questioning if the offer for the palace was genuine." So Hugo Vickers, do you think given the circumstances King Charles was right to end up banning Harry from staying at Buckingham Palace?

Yes, it does.

Helen Cathcart was a creation of a man called Harold Albert, and he wrote books, you know, The Queen at 50, The Queen at 55, that sort of thing went on.

And, uh, they were very, very popular and successful in, in its, in their day.

What, what he really annoyed the press office at Buckingham Palace was that he would say things like, you know, "The Queen went to have tea with Lady Rupert Neville and they discussed the latest antics of Princess Anne." The point I'm trying to make is that journalists have absolutely no idea what they talked about.

And when he was, he, Harold Albert, was taken up about this, he would say, "Well, that's what they would've discussed." Well, would they? We don't know.

Why can't they all just have dinner together instead of being told that it's a summit meeting? The fact that they've got all of them there.

I mean, Princess Anne does a mass of stuff in Scotland anyway, so does Prince Edward, and that they're all in the Order of the Thistle.

I'm not gonna do that."

I mean, we- s- we say it's not fair that the King has to deal with the inherited Andrew problem.

Well, I, I, I th- I think that, you know, anything that can be done to reconcile Prince Harry with his father would be a g- a good thing on both sides, and I would imagine Prince William would understand that.

It doesn't mean he's gonna come back.

Doesn't mean he's gonna take part in royal re- engagements again.

Doesn't mean he's gonna be of any use, because anything he does over here is always in conflict with, um, what Prince William is doing.

You know, you've seen it a million times.

You know, Prince Harry's here.

Oh.

It was Hugo's, uh, it was Hugo's, uh, golden tongue that won it.

No, no, no, but, but of course, obviously it was quite easy to win in a sense because quite clearly the monarchy was continuing after the death of Queen Elizabeth II.

But what was nice about the debate was that we were quite calm and put forward logical and sensible arguments in a very measured way, whereas the other side were kind of ranting, and one, one particular guy was sort of banging the table and shouting and things.

So, um, but it was nice that it was 126 for us and 108 for them, and so this is a young, rather miscellaneous, um, possibly left-wing audience, students who know, basically always hate everything.

Mm-hmm.

Because President Trump respects him, and maybe Prince William.

He doesn't respect anybody else in this country, and he was able to make subtle points and get away with it.

I don't think anyone else could have done that.

How much of the success of that visit do you think was down to the diplomacy that he learnt from his mother?

Well, I would- thought that was very interesting, the, the visit.

As you know, there was a lot of controversy as to whether he should be going at all.

And, um, indeed, I think it was quite in doubt as to whether he would go, um, because certainly when I was in Washington recently and I gave a talk for, um, at the British Embassy, they were all planning the visit, but no date had been given, and it looked a bit suspicious.

However, my view was that actually, uh, the King was about the only person in this country that President Trump really respected, and, um, [chuckles] he was the only person who could've pulled off, uh, such a interesting and slightly, at times, almost political and slightly provocative speech, and do it with, uh, tremendous aplomb and get away with it.

And so I guess, uh, that, that is really what it's all about when we're talking about these monarchs like him and the Queen, is that they are essentially above politics.

A state visit is essentially a diplomatic, uh, encounter, even if it has a political agenda under- under- un- an undertone, if you like.

How, how dangerous was that moment in 1997 when the Princess of Wales, uh, was killed in the, uh, accident in Paris, and you had, um, The Sun newspaper, for example, saying, "Show us you care, Ma'am," and things like that?

Mm-hmm.

But of course the difference between the two of them, and this may not necessarily have been Diana's fault, is of course that Catherine does not compete.

She doesn't compete with Prince William.

She doesn't compete with the King.

She didn't compete with Queen Elizabeth II.

Whereas Diana, maybe she didn't intend to, but she certainly, you know, was left with that, we are left, we are left with that impression that, that it was all to do with her, you know, that Prince Charles would be making a speech and people would be looking at her of, of if, if there was something happening, you know, she might cross her legs or m- make a funny gesture or something and the world turned on her.

And he got fed up with that, as you know, um, because all the headlines were always on her.

How do you feel about this?

So, you know, a lot of the commentary in, in the States is here comes King Charles to mediate the situation, but that wasn't the ultimate objective at the beginning of this trip, was it? What was the ultimate objective in your opinion when this plan started to develop?

Well, what I would say is that when the King goes on a state visit, it is theoretically, uh, not a political move, although, yeah, we know it has a lot of political, uh, implications behind the scenes.

It's essentially a diplomatic move.

Um, as you say, I've just written a book about the Queen, and when you look at what she did when she went to places like Russia and China and Ireland, to Germany and Japan after the war, what she was doing was, um, you know, cutting a path, opening the doors, um, smoothing things down so that then the politicians, and let's face it, also the businessmen and people all followed.

So essentially, you know, we must bear that in mind, that it's meant to be a diplomatic, a diplomatic move by the King.

And so I think, you know, I mean, what was so wonderful was that, uh, President Trump was very keen to come over here o- on the two occasions when he met the Queen at Windsor and then his state visit in 2019.

He was extremely well at- entertained by the King, um, in the autumn last year.

But when you think about special moments between the royal family and Am- and American presidents, what stories stand out to you?

didSpeak to her frankly, and that must have been really refreshing for her.

Yes, and I think that he worked out very early on when they, uh, got married and after the king died, I mean, he lost his naval career, but, I mean, he soon picked himself up, being a practical man, and realized that, you know, he could support the queen in all sorts of different ways, and yet when he wasn't needed, he would be doing his award schemes and his special playing fields and, and an enormous amount of other things, too.

So I think that he was very supportive to her.

I mean, they were very constructive as a couple.

I mean, they were very focused, both of them.

And so when he was being supportive to her, if he said, saw something going wrong, yes, he would say so, and she would listen, definitely.

And I think, again, he had no official role in the Constitution at all, so she had that side, but he did a- alleviate her burden by running all the royal estates.

It's interesting to think that the late queen and Prince Philip had a, such a long, successful marriage, yet whatever secret it was that made it a successful marriage, they could not share or didn't work for three of their children.

Mm.

And I just really main- m- mainly remember that he had that operation, and there was a time when he was sitting on a sort of chaise lounge or in a chair or something outside the castle and, uh, uh, it was the summer, and then, you know, suddenly he reappeared again, um, which was remarkable.

But of course you can have forms of cancer when you're very old which don't sort of move around as much as they do when your people are younger.

So, um, and I've had various people writing to me saying, um, "Well, this is, you know, I knew somebody who did this," or, or even one person said, "Well, this is encouraging news for me," you know, because you do think it's going to be, um, cr- c- uh, terminal.

But at any rate, he, he, you know, yes, he, I mean he did, um, he was very, um, very strong, and he did a, he did a wonderful job.

I mean, I was sorry for him that he had to go into hospital for about two months b- at the beginning of the year in which he actually died, and it took a long time for them to get him out of hospital.

He had two operations.

So, uh, it did sort of draw home to me that, you know, at times the Duchess of Windsor perhaps got a bad rap, and I know the Queen Mother certainly was not fond of her at all, believing, you know, that suddenly her husband, who wasn't expected to be king, suddenly finds himself with the top job and having to be the king during the Second World War.

That is quite scary, actually, isn't it? Yes,

very scary.

She'd used it on ministers and things.

Of course, she'd read the documents.

If they hadn't done their research, you know, she liked catching them.

I think Prince Philip loved catching people as well.

He particularly hated company chairmen who delivered slick speeches and really didn't know what they were talking about in factories and things like that, you know, people who swanned in.

What's your analysis of relationship between the Queen and her so-called favourite son? Was he her favourite?

Right, okay.

What was really interesting was that what I discovered when writing the book were two things.

If I could go back a little bit, I hadn't realized how close she was to George V and how extremely sad and indeed even ill she was after he died.

There's a sort of lovely scene of the two princesses going to the zoo and following Percy the Penguin in 1935.

And it looks at that moment as though childhood will go on forever.

And you know how it is, there comes a moment, it comes to everybody's life sooner or later when you have to face up to a different sort of reality.

And the reality, of course, was one, the death of George V.

Like, it was obviously executed to what she wanted.

This could just be smiling, shaking hands, looking sharp, engaging with important people and schmoozing.

Well, I think that state visits, they are not really meant to have an overtly political agenda.

Of course, they do.

But they are diplomatic.

They're sort of gateways.

They're sort of opening a path.

They're opening discussions.

Are you at all like Harry? Maybe the UK is a safer space for you.

I'm watching the British leadership crumble while there are a lot of American politicians and very high profile individuals on this list that are scot-free.

Well, yeah, I mean, it seems to me that the British, you know, each one is being picked off one by one.

You know, that seems to be the case.

And you're absolutely right.

And I've seen that said, and I couldn't agree with you more.

But maybe they're better at controlling things over there, over where you are, than they are over here.

But it's, you know, and also our press, you know, is pretty bad.

Hugo, do you have any thoughts about the King's potential visit in April? Does it make you nervous at all?

It is a lot of fun to see so much of the royal family and in such a strategic way to where we're learning a little bit more about them, but really their mission is to get these important causes out there.

Well, I think it's moving with the times, really.

I mean, this is the way forward, podcasts and documentaries and the issues of the day that need to be discussed.

I mean, I personally thought the...

I mean, I watched the royal family film when it came out and actually I expect...

Dickies, probably like me, has been able to see it again fairly recently, popped up on YouTube.

And I actually suggested that they should re-release it because when you had the idiotic Netflix series, The Crown, at least you saw the real thing.

Yes.

king.

And you can put any interpretation you like on her being his friend.

I don't mind what conclusions you come to about that.

But she certainly didn't want to be the wife of the exiled Duke of Windsor looking after a man who had absolutely nothing to do and trying to do her best, which she did.

to feed him and keep him entertained for the next 35 years.

And she inadvertently, not his intention, but what happened was she was turned into pretty much the most hated woman in the world.

And that's not how she saw herself, you know.

hints at that during the bbc interview i can't bring my wife and children over it's not dangerous i don't suspect we're going to see that anytime soon if he just comes over and is you know collecting a paycheck or is trying to play faux royal i think that media wise he'll be roasted

Do you think that the way that Harry and Meghan have talked about how the royal family dismissed them because they stole headlines, do you think that there's any of that when it comes to the beautiful Wales babies and how we are all so excited to see them? I

think that the Wales children are absolutely amazing, all three of them.

I think that going back to the twerking thing, when I saw that, I thought that it was something had been created by people who really hated her.

It was a kind of like a fake news thing.

Yes.

Because I couldn't believe there could be anything quite so ridiculous and in such poor taste.

And then it's opened up the question again of, you know, because she's holding her tummy and, you know, it was ridiculous.

One person says one thing, somebody else says something else.