Dan, can you explain the visuals here? What are we seeing for people who are not here?

It is a trendy Brooklyn place.

About 50 people who are feeling super exclusive because they're the hippie elite.

And they get to hear a secret told by Pablo that they will tell their friends about because those are the kinds of secrets that Pablo tells.

The thing we're here to

if you're listening to this you've made it to the end of the show what a remarkably cruel thing we've done to you because you do not have the experience that we just had uh I am sitting next to Dan, who is sitting next to Meth, and Dan, for people who did not get to watch Meth listen to his art, can you describe what this looked like?

Yeah, so beautiful.

Wu-Tang, one of the most authentic things in the history of music, like really a special group.

We could-

But why wouldn't we talk about the team that spent 128 days atop the AL East, as everyone talked about the Red Sox all season and the Yankees all season, and Chandler Simpson is out there just hitting the ball on the ground all the time, and they've got a shortstop who can't hit the ball at all? But what he does is, when Max Freed falls to his left a little too much in the scouting report, he bunts with a runner on third and one out all season, 'cause they bunt more than any team in the home run league.

And they do that because the bottom half of their lineup stinks, but they've spent 128 days atop the AL East as everyone has talked about the Red Sox and Yankees, because they're the most fascinating team that I have seen in baseball since the Moneyball A's in terms of exploiting market inefficiencies 'cause they steal bases and they play great defense, and they use their relievers like disposable razors.

And nobody knows that Drew Rasmussen is the, uh, top five pitcher over the last three years, and that all they do is throw a bunch of strikes and have extraordinary plate discipline.

And Kyle Snyder, the pitching coach, and Kevin Cash, the manager, uh, they actually teach players how to get better.

And you see, uh, that they could lose Brandon Lowe, 33 home runs, 100 RBIs in Pittsburgh, and they can lose Paredes, uh, Spanish for walls.

They kept the stinky walls, but the Spanish walls who can actually hit, they let him go, and it doesn't matter.

[upbeat music]

And yet, and I love Joe Buck, and I'm really happy for him, but how is it possible that ESPN continues to think that that is the way to compensate, by giving him an extension that turns out to be a nine-figure extension to keep going, not just as the Monday Night Football voice, but potentially as the voice of other sports? I was shocked by that announcement.

Okay, so let's examine this from the only perspective that I have, which is that I worked at ESPN for a while, and my agent, a former defensive end, told me many years ago, uh, long before it happened, long before they pushed, uh, the journalists out of the building, "Hey, Dan, what ESPN is going to do with all of its money for its talent," because they've realized that SportsCenter is actually a repeatable thing, it can be anybody, that all of the programming is just infomercials to get you to when Joe Buck is talking, because that's all of the programming at ESPN.

They told me, the move that ESPN's about to make is they're gonna have a lower class of lower-paid talent, and they're gonna have six to 10 monster stars, and they're gonna get rid of the entirety of everyone else making a million dollars, $750,000, two million dollars, even three million dollars.

I think it's a funny middle class to look at, the people making millions of dollars.

But they told me that they were gonna do some of this.

And the idea of it is they're changing in a modern media landscape.

They are doing things for football that just keeps paying money to football so football gets what it wants so that they can be friends with football, because football now owns 10% of ESPN.

... which I think is negative, actually

Are you worried about getting sued? Are you worried about being wrong?

I'm worried about being factually wrong.

like just doing something like we we do not have we have resources but we do not have the resources of these mainstream media outlets that wouldn't get bankrupted by an innocent mistake like i've i've got the responsibility here in new york of uh you know 50 people who i care about some of whom didn't have children when they started working for me and now have children and so You guys, I trust that you guys will be the highest form of competent and integrity.

So to protect me and us from what is a company that we all have a percentage in.

Everybody who works full time at Metal Ark Media has a percentage in this.

But yeah, it's scary to do this.

Like you made a joke at some point during this on the air where you're like, I love to get sued, because you know when you're on the right side of things that you could just prove it in court.

Dan, when Pablo and I first talked about it, do you know that it was a long time ago?

If I don't have the perspective on like, what did we accomplish? What does that free us to do? Does it free us to be present at a funeral? Then I think we've up.

Yeah, it won't be successful the way that I define success this stage of my life.

When you say, though, easier said than done.

The people who have had the most success in entertainment make it look easy without you having any earthly idea of how hard it was.

And it was almost always exceptionally hard.

And you specifically have already done the hardest thing the hardest way.

You're at a trough.

of 2023.

Yeah

...

if I had to go anywhere in the apocalypse for safety, I would go stand next to wherever it is Pat Riley is in that building, because he's running, it's, it's a military camp.

Like, those, I don't think the people involved with the Miami Heat would tell you that the doing of it is very fun or joyous.

The results might be, but the living in that furnace is ver- I mean, they're, you're, you're fighting the world for money.

Like, you're-

Yeah.

Well, I, I grew up as a newspaper columnist here, right? During a heyday of newspapering, and one of the things that would happen in Miami, I tell this story quite a bit, is that on page 6D, I know a lot of the audience isn't gonna know what newspapers are, but, uh, deep in the newspaper you'd have a, a crime watch meeting hosted by a local sheriff, and the Coast Guard is chasing a drug plane across the sky-

Oh, she-

...

the answer to your question has an assortment of things in it.

Uh, I do acupuncture three times a week.

I'm doing something called NAET.

I'm, I eat according to my blood type.

And so I'm doing a lot of things that, where my, if I've eaten the wrong thing, my body sort of immediately tells me by, by just, uh, making sure that I'm sort of trying the best I can to avoid the surgery, 'cause I don't wanna go down the path.

Who's the, who's your, your favorite athlete that you've covered? Or most impactful to you?

He's still looking for work.

But the, but that, that came from Grant Wahl.

Our friend Grant Wahl wrote this article, the late Grant Wahl, and The Chosen One, he didn't become The Chosen One until it was on this headline on this magazine.

But also beyond that, when you talk about the power of the magazine at the time and the ridiculousness of 3 million people in America learning who you are, this picture is something that introduced us to 20 years of basketball after that.

And the conversation around this at the time was, should you put a 17-year-old on the cover of a magazine? Is that irresponsible because he's not a professional?

Not necessarily ignoring it, but just, "Hey, I don't need that to be discussed when it comes to why I made it."

If he were to talk about whatever the poverty porn was in his life that actually shaped him, when he says tangentially here, "I saw a lot of drugs and crime," but I'm not talking about the cliched stuff.

I'm talking about the details to his story that he has never told about how he was shaped, and how it is that Grant Wahl would arrive at LeBron James' street credibility.

And I want to use the University of Miami as kind of a stand-in for like what it's like to actually cover an institution that's going to get mad at you because the best story available is not the one that they even recognize.

Billy did a love letter, and it's the James Baldwin line of America, love it enough to criticize it.

I love that school.

I love my relationship with that program.

That school is responsible for almost everything that I became in my career.

I'm talking about all the teachings up to and including the University of Miami football team of the late 80s and early 90s taught me about race relations and a different side of Miami that isn't where I grew up.

And so, yeah, I've got a ton of stories like Billy would, I imagine, that are complicated love letters that include, at one point, because I was writing articles that ended up with Sports Illustrated, Sports Illustrated called for the death of the program.

Like, if the theory of all of this larger metal art project is, surprise, America is Miami now, why is Miami this way? Why is it always the thing that draws all of these exaggerated cartoon characters that are corrupt and scandalous and absurd?

don't know what jumps out at you when you think back at all of the times you were asked, why are you guys harming us? What jumps out as like the greatest hits of stuff you guys did that you knew would be interfering with the money? What was on that list?

The one that I remember that was sort of the starting point on it, we hadn't been there very long.

It was a funny one in retrospect because of everything I'm about to tell you, which is during a quaint time when newspapers mattered, I was calling around during our show as content all over Cleveland asking how much it would cost to buy a newspaper ad that said to LeBron as he headed back to Cleveland, hey...

You're welcome from Miami.

And we got stopped at every turn and were asked to pay like $100,000.

And furthermore, they wouldn't take our money when we were asking about it.

So we decided to put up billboards at much less of a cost, which as the newspaper industry falls apart, it's funny to think about getting billboards a lot cheaper because newspapers wouldn't take our money.

Genuinely, the question I have as I look across the landscape is who else gets to be protected by that? And there aren't many places left, except for places that are independently trying to carve it out as a matter of pride, of this is why we do what we do.

But what's going on right now with media and what could be coming soon to a theater near you, we were, we were right there, and then you let it go.

Uh, my reason for that is twofold.

Uh, one is my audience is very used to me talking about that subject matter, and I've gotta pick my spots judiciously on how often I do that, because I can wear people out because of how passionate I am about specifically that and how heartbroken I am that I care about something in a way that's disproportionate to the way that a lot of people, uh, think about, for example, journalism.

Don't make it free speech, but journalism specifically.

Uh, I don't think I have a greater professional heartbreak than watching what it is that has happened to the media, which acts as a checks and balances on government that I thought was a core American principle that we all sort of agreed with.

And then to see it deteriorate because people aren't caring about it the way that I care about it, I can wear out the audience with that.

And then the other thing is, our show has to have, uh, every once in a while, the monkeys throwing feces.

All the information that we should require as a democracy to make decisions about what we do, that's what is actually being crushed at the moment, and it's being said out loud by Trump and his cabinet.

I vaguely remember.

Okay, so I am bothered by the fact that the morality gatekeepers of the Hall of Fame aren't letting Barry Bonds and the best baseball players I've ever seen get into the Hall of Fame because they're treating it as a moral epicenter instead of a museum.

And so I quote-unquote sell my vote to Deadspin and allow their— readers to pick my Hall of Fame ballot and they pick a really good one and I would have had a decision to make if they'd picked a really bad one but they picked a good one and so I let the whole stunt go on and then of course the Hall of Fame took my vote but the entire reasoning behind doing it beyond the look at me narcissism of enjoying the circus and the pageantry of nonsense was very much to object to the idea that I didn't like baseball writers my brethren and using that kind of sanctimony to lock the gates on excellence.

And it's the same sort of thing that has happened here to Bill Belichick, where they are embarrassing him.

He's getting a phone call that is stunning him.

I would love to see his reaction to that in real time as he's learning, like the rest of us, the shocking news that the most obvious of first ballot Hall of Famers doesn't get to be a first ballot Hall of Famer because the morality police have arrested him.

talking about here?

I would not care to, and I will not apologize to you.

Is this probably the most you've felt from a freedom perspective now going and being independent and having metal art?

Well, you know what's funny about that? It was much safer to be anti-establishment from within the establishment.

Okay.

You have the safety net of an employer.

You have the responsibility for just yourself, and the employer takes care of all of the other people.

I am now responsible for the families of 40 people and a corporation that I wish that for it to care about them in a meaningful way.

And so in some ways I have more power in control indisputably by leaps and bounds than I ever have because I do not have an employer.

What did day one look like for Metal Lock from a financial perspective?

I embellish.

That's all I thought.

Look, this is a relentlessly authentic person.

And I also believe that Method Man, and maybe even as an actor...

I would say, having consumed the parts of your work that I've enjoyed, where I feel like you're trying to show yourself to people, that you're in there, but instead of you, the human being at five, meth is him at ten.

Yeah.

Or the parts that you pick, the parts that you're selecting, or someone that you allow...

Whatever

And I just wonder for Levitard, when did you make peace with the fact that it sounds like your threshold for what you need to also be laughing at is different from Patrick?

Well, there are a couple of things here.

One, I didn't grow up with television.

I've been a fat kid all of my life.

And as soon as I got to Pardon the Interruption, they beat everyone to the joke with, we know he's not wanted here.

They want Wilbon and Kornheiser.

So they beat everyone to the joke.

I was being sincere with him and I said, make him proud by showing him how strong you can be because you saw how strong he could be in the hospital.

I, I'm just trying to understand from the front office from ownership where they go, "Nope, we gotta sign this guy up now." Why?

They're wildly mismanaged.

They've got a GM who's got the longest tenure in the league without winning a playoff game.

Uh, they have not enough good players and they got fooled by scoring 70 points against the Broncos and having a comeback against the Ravens, which a lot of people do, uh, late in games.

The Ravens have ha- blown 17 second half leads and, uh, they got enamored, uh, with, uh, they had the best offense in the league and more than that, Dan, and this, this part matters, they had exciting offense.

They were the fastest team in the league.

But now you look up and they're accused of being soft and not physical enough, and the three guys that they have on offense that you need things from, Waddle, Hill and Tua, all physically undersized.

Now, you, you might see that with the Jets, uh, maybe, or the Bears with Walter Payton, but when you're thinking about the Dolphins, do you see other jerseys of, you know, th- you know, anybody besides Dan Marino in the building?

I- I'm just trying to understand from the front office, from ownership, where they go, "Nope, we gotta sign this guy up now." Why?

They're wildly mismanaged.

They've got a GM who's got the longest tenure in the league without winning a playoff game.

Uh, they have not enough good players, and they got fooled by scoring 70 points against the Broncos and having a comeback against the Ravens, which a lot of people do, uh, late in games.

The Ravens have blown 17 second-half leads, and, uh, they got enamored, uh, with...

Uh, they had the best offense in the league and more than that, Dan, and this, this part matters, they had exciting offense.

They were the fastest team in the league.

Now, you, you might see that with the Jets, uh, maybe, or the Bears with Walter Payton, but when you're thinking about the Dolphins, do you see other jerseys of, you know, th- m- you know, anybody besides Dan Marino in the building?

If you're down for a bit of a ride that you definitely did not sign up for today.

No, not what I wanted to do.

I know now that you've got a series of papers in front of me and you want to do this thing you now do where you surprise David Sampson or Amino Hassan.

And now I've got surprises here to look at.

But I did want to, as preface, I did want to just simply talk to you because...

I have found the way journalists have reacted to your story to be super interesting in that it seems to me like a whole lot of people don't want your reporting to be true when what I do know about your reporting is it's exhaustive.

And I want people to understand that you've got lawyers listening in on every conversation that you're having these days because your standard is one that that is much higher than the people who are denying the story.

And that's what this issue potentially touches on, which is, I think, why in part it's getting so much attention.

What did day one look like for Metal Lock from a financial perspective?

Well, day one is a funny combination of exhilarating and terrifying because the circumstances for leaving ESPN, they give us the severance package that will allow me to pay for the next six months.

But everything after that's a leaf of faith.

I've got...

The ability to protect my people with they're not going to make us stay quiet for the next 18 months, which we could have collected all of the money but not done anything anywhere, or we could have started the next day with our own business.

So I wasn't ready in any way.

I thought I knew some things, but I didn't know.

How do you guys envision that continue to grow and blossom within Metal Ark?

45.

I have later in life lost some of the value that I used to have in being competitive and however it is that competitive masked my insecurities back when I was coming up.

I was not good at news-breaking competitive.

I remember sobbing in a Miami Herald bathroom at midnight because I didn't want to be doing...

I wanted to be telling stories.

I didn't want to be chasing where the Marlin spring training complex would be.

And so...

No, but see,

Forty-five.

I have later in life lost some of the value that I used to have in being competitive and however it is that competitive masked my insecurities back when I was coming up.

I was not good at news breaking competitive.

I remember sobbing in a Miami Herald bathroom at midnight because I didn't want to be doing, I wanted to be telling stories.

I didn't want to be chasing where the Marlin Spring Training Complex would be.

And so I didn't really like what I was doing.

But later on, when it became writing, writing stories, I wanted to beat Mitch Albom at whatever the things were that got you awards when you were the best sports writer in America for telling stories.

a few but

What was that like for you to get to do a show with Poppy like that?

Well, it's going to be a very different experience than the one that you guys have, and it's beautiful to watch what it is that you have, and it's beautiful to watch the reverence that your son has for all the treasure chest of special things that you are.

Tim, my father...

Never really thought that was my show.

My father always viewed me as his son and couldn't view me as anything else.

So he took instruction from everyone else, except from me.

Everyone else was his boss.

plenty, Dan, don't worry.

It's very frustrating.

I'm assuming, Pablo, I'm assuming, I don't know, but based on your team of reporters and how you like to make fun of me, I'm assuming that I'm about to make an admission here that I've never made before, a secret that I've kept for 30 years, because you have in your video compartment my only game show appearance ever where I can admit now, only all of these years later— that I do not have the benefit of actually the credibility that Mina does, where I actually believe her buzzer was not quick enough and she knew the answers to all those questions.

The thing I'm about to admit- We all

You're still on the Daily Doubles,

you're talking.

Yeah, well, what I'm talking about is the pressure of the moment making you make smaller bets when the biggest bets would have been on yourself.

And it's just so interesting to not have the confidence in that moment.

Because, see, I think I would be afraid to do all of this in front of people, vulnerably allowing them to examine... whether or not you're quote unquote smart enough or fast enough by testing your intelligence on television.

It's very frustrating.

I'm assuming, Pablo, I'm assuming, I don't know, but based on your team of reporters and how you like to make fun of me, I'm assuming that I'm about to make an admission here that I've never made before, a secret that I've kept for 30 years, because you have in your video compartment my only game show appearance ever where I can admit now, only all of these years later— that I do not have the benefit of actually the credibility that Mina does, where I actually believe her buzzer was not quick enough and she knew the answers to all those questions.

The thing I'm about to admit- We all

still on the Daily Doubles,

you're talking.

Yeah, well, what I'm talking about is the pressure of the moment making you make smaller bets when the biggest bets would have been on yourself.

And it's just so interesting to not have the confidence in that moment because...

See, I think I would be afraid to do all of this in front of people, vulnerably allowing them to examine whether or not you're quote unquote smart enough or fast enough by testing your intelligence on television.

(laughs)

Because we're talking about one of the most interesting athletes of my lifetime, a guy who shows up at his last college game in a limousine with a top hat and tuxedo and a grade point average of 0.00 'cause he hasn't gone to class and is just telling everybody, "I'm here for the money. I'm here to change sports. I'm here to be a mercenary. I'm here for my talent to carry me. And I'm here to buck the system and fight against the cultural repressions of football."... and America. And my son isn't a cornerback, he's a quarterback. And when you say, "Arrogance at the positions, we like it," not so much at quarterback, not so much at face of a team, voice of a team. You're allowed to be publicly arrogant. Generally speaking, the most popular quarterbacks, Tom Brady among them, you don't get arrogance. You get, "Get the questions away from my locker. I'm gonna be boring on purpose." But we've got a new breed of quarterback coming into the league. We've got a cultural and generational shift at the position, and I would ask you guys, how do you think the average NFL executive who's meeting with the son of Deion Sanders, whose confidence is earned, who has been in a lifetime of being built by this particular father to play the most important position in the sport, my guess is that he is going to do things his way, and that's... They wanna knock that out of you as soon as you get there. "You're not in charge, kid. We are."

Dan, what did you bring us today?

A New York Times story that feels like Joaquin Phoenix in Her except, uh, the her in this case is, uh, human, and she fell in love with ChatGBT. Uh, GPT. Excuse me, I think I made it GBT. It's GPT, and it's got 300 million users. And I thought this was actually interesting during our epidemic of loneliness. While this would be really easy to judge, one of the quotes in here that I found most interesting was someone saying, "This might be the future of relationships." Instead of men or women trying to change their spouses, you just program something into, uh, your computer that allows you to make a perfect partner that's not real, and you could do everything from sexual fetishes to be a neglectful boyfriend. What I'm aspiring to is a neglectful boyfriend.