What, what does that mean in practice? And because otherwise we won't understand where the opposition's gonna come from or where the problems come from.

So what it means in practice is you come into the system right now, and if you are assessed as having a health condition, you are put on what's called politely the health journey.

You get Universal Credit health or you get PIP.

Um, and by and large, once you get on it, you can't get off it.

Okay? Because the incentives kick in.

So, you know, you get, you get this income.

The risk of trying a job is very high, so people don't.

What are the things that have stopped government dealing with it? And you're a great optimist, but if you didn't get this through, what do you think are gonna be the two main reasons why you don't manage to get this reform through and why we're still stuck with this problem in five, ten years' time?

I'd be really interested in the dynamic of that and how you're feeling about that.

Yeah, no, it's a really interesting phenomenon because obviously – This is an independent review.

It was set up by the Starmer government and he has more than embraced it and brought huge energy and commitment to it.

And I think it is, I think as an issue, it's seared on his soul.

He feels what I feel about it, that this is visceral and it's a generational issue.

inflection point, and therefore we've got to deal with it.

So it's independent.

What are the things that have stopped government dealing with it? And you're a great optimist, but if you didn't get this through, what do you think are going to be the two main reasons why you don't manage to get this reform through and why we're still stuck with this problem in five, 10 years time?

There are a woman in the green.

Yes.

I wonder what you think the broader lessons are, both for that group, but also how government can improve things for that broader group who are out of work due to ill health.

Good.

Well, listen, first of all, many apologies for being an hour late for an hour-long event.

That is a record.

I got caught, well, not slightly on the hop, but I had to go in for the Chancellor's speech.

And I blew him off.

I wonder what you think the broader lessons are, both for that group, but also how government can improve things for that broader group who are out of work due to ill health.

Good.

Well, listen, first of all, many apologies for being an hour late for an hour-long event.

That is a record.

I got caught, well, not slightly on the hop, but I had to go in for the Chancellor's speech.

And I blew

him

off.

[laughs]

But, uh, yeah.

Look, it's going to deal with this issue in the round.

There's a generation here who want to work.

84% of them want to work, want to be in training, and we've got to provide the opportunity for them to do so.

And I think the only way of doing that is not by a bit of tinkering here and a bit of tinkering w- there.

This needs, to use the prime minister's phrase, a total rewiring of the state.

What does that mean?

Why, Alan, should this be a business imperative for them to be thinking about this in terms of bringing on young people and developing them?

I think whether you're an SME or a large business, whether you're in technology at the top end of the labour market or hospitality at the sort of bottom end, every employer I talk to raises one issue, which is the shortage of skilled labour.

And this is a real phenomenon.

Now, unemployment is ticking up.

That's obviously regrettable amongst the young.

It's sort of, it's quite high.

It's about 16%.

So, you know, what does a public sector first good job mean? kind of construct look like and potentially in terms of the sort of social value contract what is the role of kind of government procurement in expecting that kite mark that sort of first good jobs guarantee to being part of that process and i think some of those things guide business to doing those things with a benefit

I was trying to fill to give you time to get to the stage, Alan, but you were too polite.

Thanks so much.

Thanks, Lindsay.

That was fantastic.

And as always, making something very complex, very straightforward.

So thank you to you and thanks to Ruth and thanks to the Resolution Foundation for hosting the event.

And I think this is an important debate because it goes... really to the heart of one of the biggest questions facing our country, which is what sort of future do we envisage for the next generation? For too many young people, as we know, the answer is currently a world outside of work.

How do you prioritise and is there sort of any imaginative way of finding that money?

But do, do you think the problem is that young people don't know how to access them, or they're not readily accessible, or do you think it's different in different parts of the country?

I think...

Look, it's a bit different in different parts of the country, and the problems are a bit different.

You know, so I'm from the northeast of England, as you can probably gather from my accent, and, you know, unemployment is higher there than it is in the southeast of, uh, uh, of the country.

I wish it wasn't like that, but it is.

And so there's different local labor markets.

But I honestly think a lot of these schemes have been quite good.

Wow.

Like, where is the sort of balance of problem, do you think?

You know, people tend to look at this over the years.

If you think about public policy, it's basically tried to address this question of youth unemployment through a supply-side lens.

In other words, if you make young people more employable, improve standards in schools, improve their skills, toughen their benefits, then that will solve the problem.

But if you have a labor market that isn't working to bring them in, then you can fix the supply side and the demand side remains unaltered, and that's why what you've got.

What's really interesting and sort of worrying about this is that if you look at the numbers, the proportion of young people who've got five good GCSEs who are NEET is now thirty percent.

Fifteen percent of the NEETs have got a degree.

It's a totally different thing, but all their young do something which just brings them into the same place at the same time and, I don't know, just sends them out into the world feeling like they've got a, a hardback shell on them.

Why take a low-paid job, says The Sun, when you can get more in government handouts? How fair is that, Alan?

I think there is fundamental change needed in the benefits system, and more importantly, so does Pat McFadden, who's the Work and Pensions Secretary.

I'm reporting to him with this review.

So when you look at the benefits system, you look at the welfare system, all too often it's set up in such a way that it hands out benefits but doesn't provide support.

So the most graphic figure that we have in the report is that for every £25 that we're spending on handing out benefits to young people, we're only giving £1 in employment support to get them into work.

The way you get the benefits bill down isn't by some sort of arbitrary cut.

The way to do it is to get young people into work.

Does it play into the work you and your colleagues are doing?

Mm.

That's the first thing.

The second reason for optimism is, as I say, in society, this is a visceral issue.

I mean, just everywhere.

And people not only wanna talk about it, they wanna do something about it.

So when I was in Newcastle talking to the leader of the council and the chief executive there and saying, "Listen, you know, in the area I grew up, Benwell, I don't know what the rate is, but it might be one in four kids who are NEET.

This is absolutely appalling.

There, there's so many elements to this, but do you genuinely think we're gonna see change?