Episode 2: Where does a great careers program live in K-12 schooling?

Everyone agrees careers education matters. So why does it keep ending up on the periphery of school life and one person's responsibility? In this episode Liv and Marian ask a deceptively simple question: what is a great careers program, and whose job is it actually? They zoom into the evidence on best practice, including the Gatsby Benchmarks from the UK and where Australia sits by comparison, and zoom out to a systems view of why this work keeps getting pushed to the edges even when policy and school vision statements say otherwise. Drawing on Donella Meadows' systems thinking framework, they make the case that if careers education is marginalised, that's not an accident. It might be the system working exactly as it was designed. Along the way, Liv unpacks what "career," "career development," and "careers education" actually mean and why the distinction matters, and Marian traces the historical decisions that built the "grammar of schooling" and what Meadows would say about judging a system's purpose by what it actually produces, not what it claims. You'll leave with two simple starting points: a mapping exercise from Liv, and a walk around your own school with fresh eyes from Marian. Plus, this episode's "I Didn't Know That Was a Thing" comes from an unlikely source: Marian's five year old son Hugo, who is keenly interested in deep sea research and isn't that bothered about how one goes to the toilet while on a submersible. Head to the Substack for this episode's "Take This To The Meeting" resource where you can unpack the concepts of this episode with your school team.  **Research and thinking referenced in this episode:** World Economic Forum (2025) — *Future of Jobs Report 2025* https://www.weforum.org/publications/the-future-of-jobs-report-2025/ Career Industry Council of Australia / National Careers Institute (2022) — *Australian Blueprint for Career Development*(2nd ed.) https://www.yourcareer.gov.au/resources/australian-blueprint-for-career-development Holman, J. (2014, updated 2024) — *The Gatsby Benchmarks / Good Career Guidance* https://www.gatsby.org.uk/education/activity/good-career-guidance/ OECD (2024–2025) — *PISA 2022 Career Readiness Dashboard* and *The State of Global Teenage Career Preparation* https://www.oecd.org/en/data/dashboards/teenage-career-readiness.html https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/the-state-of-global-teenage-career-preparation\_d5f8e3f2-en.html Schleicher, A. (2015) — *Education in an Uncertain World*, Project Syndicate https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/education-technological-skills-more-important-by-andreas-schleicher-2015-12 Career Industry Council of Australia (2025) — *Australia's Youth Deserve Better Than a "Curriculum Connection"* https://cica.org.au/australias-youth-deserve-better/ Tyack, D. & Cuban, L. (1995) — *Tinkering Toward Utopia: A Century of Public School Reform*, Harvard University Press https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674892835 Education Council (2019) — *Alice Springs (Mparntwe) Education Declaration* https://www.education.gov.au/indigenous-education/resources/alice-springs-mparntwe-education-declaration Meadows, D. (2008) — *Thinking in Systems: A Primer*, Chelsea Green Publishing **Get in touch** Find us on Instagram @thegreatcareersprogram and on Substack at thegreatcareersprogram.substack.com for episode recaps, research links, and the conversation between episodes. Got a question, a story, or something you want us to talk about? Email us at [hi@thegreatcareersprogram.com](mailto:hi@thegreatcareersprogram.com). **Credits** The Great Careers Program is a collaboration between BECOME Education and Coherence Co-Lab, and is hosted and produced by Liv Pennie and Marian Wright, with production support from Bev Laing. Music by Chad Crouch.