The Gravity Well with Jenny Yeremiy
Oct 7, 2026 · 58 min · 12 segments
Roger Hallam argues that Brexit (separatism) was not fundamentally about EU membership but stemmed from a deeper crisis of political disconnection, where ordinary people felt ignored by the political…
Roger HallamGuest
Jenny YeremiyHost
So what is your response to folks when they do say civil dis- disobedience doesn't work or there's, you know, no point or, um, that's just the way it is? All of those kind of expressions are ...

that I hear often around the efforts of trying to be, um, publicly disruptive, let's say.

say.Well, um, my usual response is, "What's your plan?" [laughs] You know, I mean, it's important to not ...

You know, I've spent quite a lot of time in academia and, you know, academia's got its pr- pros and cons, but the bottom line is we live in the real world.

When bad things happen, then you need to react, and how do you react? Well, the overwhelming evidence is if you're engaged in civil disobedience, particularly when you're dealing with entrenched power, whether that's, you know, the British occupying India or, uh, civil rights violations in, you know, at the time of Martin Luther King or, you know, strikes in the Global South and, you know, there's a hun- million and one examples.

If you want to change your conditions, then, uh, the most effective way of doing that is to, uh, not cooperate with the people you're opposed to.

But also, just as importantly, to do that in a respectful way so that when they do start to take you seriously, then you show them respect because it's not about them, it's about their position.

And if you combine those two things together, uh, to cut a long story short, that's more effective than, you know, writing letters to your MP or, you know, hitting people or worse.

So it is, uh, that's the, the optimal response, uh, if you're interested in the social science.

[laughs] I mean, I can give you lo- lots of examples and reasons why, of course, if you want.

But, um, but the other thing to say is, of course, everyone engages in civil disobedience.

You know, robing people, engaging civil disobedience is far-right activists in the UK have just been blocking roads around the port, you know? So, um, I once had a rather interesting conversation with a Tory MP who s- asked me the same question and I said, "Well, you know, you'd engage in civil disobedience if your Tory values were being, were being violated." You know, it, it, it's just a little bit sort of bad faith, as it were, to say, "Oh, you shouldn't do it," or, "It doesn't work," because, um, self-evidently you're, you're, you're not being honest with yourself really.

I love your comment around what i- what is your plan then, because I think of the efforts that we've done here in Alberta.

So we ran campaigns against our MLAs, so our members of the legislative assem- assembly here in our province.

And there was a lot of, um, rhetoric around, um, "Wait for an election." You know, "What ...

It's not worthwhile." And I kept thinking to myself, would you rather put a pen to paper and sign a petition, or would you rather have to be on the streets and demanding change? So I think it's like you said, which would you rather? And I, I look at, um, the less we do, um, now before we're in, uh, the f- the position we're facing, which I'll just, I'll get into for you here, um, the better.

So I think it's, like you said, it's a choice of how, how disobedient do you wanna be? [laughs] Do you wanna preempt things or do you want to, uh, deal with the aftermath? And so let's talk about Brexit.

So what is your response to folks when they do say civil dis- disobedience doesn't work or there's, you know, no point or, um, that's just the way it is? All of those kind of expressions are ...

that I hear often around the efforts of trying to be, um, publicly disruptive, let's say.

say.Well, um, my usual response is, "What's your plan?" [laughs] You know, I mean, it's important to not ...

You know, I've spent quite a lot of time in academia and, you know, academia's got its pr- pros and cons, but the bottom line is we live in the real world.

When bad things happen, then you need to react, and how do you react? Well, the overwhelming evidence is if you're engaged in civil disobedience, particularly when you're dealing with entrenched power, whether that's, you know, the British occupying India or, uh, civil rights violations in, you know, at the time of Martin Luther King or, you know, strikes in the Global South and, you know, there's a hun- million and one examples.

If you want to change your conditions, then, uh, the most effective way of doing that is to, uh, not cooperate with the people you're opposed to.

But also, just as importantly, to do that in a respectful way so that when they do start to take you seriously, then you show them respect because it's not about them, it's about their position.

And if you combine those two things together, uh, to cut a long story short, that's more effective than, you know, writing letters to your MP or, you know, hitting people or worse.

So it is, uh, that's the, the optimal response, uh, if you're interested in the social science.

[laughs] I mean, I can give you lo- lots of examples and reasons why, of course, if you want.

But, um, but the other thing to say is, of course, everyone engages in civil disobedience.

You know, robing people, engaging civil disobedience is far-right activists in the UK have just been blocking roads around the port, you know? So, um, I once had a rather interesting conversation with a Tory MP who s- asked me the same question and I said, "Well, you know, you'd engage in civil disobedience if your Tory values were being, were being violated." You know, it, it, it's just a little bit sort of bad faith, as it were, to say, "Oh, you shouldn't do it," or, "It doesn't work," because, um, self-evidently you're, you're, you're not being honest with yourself really.

I love your comment around what i- what is your plan then, because I think of the efforts that we've done here in Alberta.

So we ran campaigns against our MLAs, so our members of the legislative assem- assembly here in our province.

And there was a lot of, um, rhetoric around, um, "Wait for an election." You know, "What ...

It's not worthwhile." And I kept thinking to myself, would you rather put a pen to paper and sign a petition, or would you rather have to be on the streets and demanding change? So I think it's like you said, which would you rather? And I, I look at, um, the less we do, um, now before we're in, uh, the f- the position we're facing, which I'll just, I'll get into for you here, um, the better.

So I think it's, like you said, it's a choice of how, how disobedient do you wanna be? [laughs] Do you wanna preempt things or do you want to, uh, deal with the aftermath? And so let's talk about Brexit.
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