Maggie Cogger-Orr: The Loneliest Job on the Field - Lessons from a World-Class Rugby Referee

Well, depending on who you ask, but I like to think I'm a better referee than I was a player, to be fair.

This is so interesting.

I have so many questions.

One of the first questions I have is when you first said that you went from gridiron to rugby and you liked rugby much better, I instantly made up a story that then you did not back up in any way.

So I think my story was false, but I just want to test it because I made up a story that I was like, oh, there must be something in the teamwork of it in the connection in the belonging and the thing and then you're like nope i don't like to be told what to do and i just want to be the boss and now i don't even want to work with a team at all i just want to be the referee and tell everybody what to do and so i just want to check like your your view on all that

Yeah, listen, I think like there's still there probably is way more teamwork involved in rugby because there is a lot more like player driven agency and there's therefore like too much to do.

So I do think like rugby rugby does appeal to me because it is more like about the people on the field and your your willingness to have to like work with different people who have different strengths and but equally are all sort of equal players.

contributors to like scoring tries like that's always something that I found hard to wrap my head around in football that only a couple people get to touch the ball like that doesn't really feel fair um which is another probably value of of mine so um and then in refereeing like it can be it's not probably the same amount of um team but but really like certainly at the highest levels like we try really hard that within the refereeing space like me and the assistant referees that I work with and the television match official I work with, like we really see ourselves and obviously the wider group of referees, like we really see ourselves as a team.

And even though it's not ultimately the same thing as the teams on the field, like we sort of laugh sometimes, like we never win.

Like even if you have a good day as a referee, you don't get to walk off the field feeling like you won the game because that's not what it is for us.

But, you know, we do work really hard to work as a unit on the field to ultimately like deliver what we need to deliver to the game um which is um yeah it can be a little bit more challenging it's probably not as simple as playing on a team is where there's a real clear like we won or we lost um and it's a bit easier in that regard

In prepping for this, first of all, I'm so happy to hear that fairness is one of your values because you'd want that from a referee, of course.

But in the notes that I wrote before we got on this call together, one of the things I wrote here is unsung heroes.

And it's something I think about often that refereeing is really one of the hardest jobs on the field.

Like, you know, you're putting yourself in a position and I think about kind of the abuse that the referees at the World Cup cop, you know, when people think they made a wrong call or they go back five phases because the TMO says we should only go back two phases or whatever it is.

And I just feel like refereeing is... one of the most critical jobs on the field and one of the least appreciated jobs on the field.

And so one of the things I'm most curious about with you is, you know, you feel you're a better referee than you were a player.

What is the – and I just heard you say that you and your fellow referees feel like you never win.

What is the motivation? Like what drives you? What satisfaction do you get from this role?

Yeah, I think – I think it's an interesting one too, because like different referees will have different motivations and certainly at a community rugby level, we get a lot of people involved because rugby or whatever sport they choose to referee or umpire, but certainly rugby has contributed a lot to their life and they want to give back to the community and facilitate others being able to enjoy it.

But I do think to your point, like as you sort of go up the ranks and the pressures and the sort of, you know, you know, what's being asked of you increases and the repercussions of your decisions increase.

I do think, like, for most people, if you unpick a little bit further, like, for me, it really has been, like, I choose to do it and continue to do it, A, because it satisfies a real sort of personal drive in me to, like, pursue excellence, to, like, see... um, see how, what levels of the game I can operate at, see what I can contribute to the game in terms of that, like excellence.

Um, and it's a real sort of like satisfaction of the challenge of being able to sort of do that for me.

Um, and I, and I do think, you know, ultimately we continue to do it because we, um, you know, we feel we're the right people to do the job that the game needs and, and, um, Ultimately, when you really feel that you can give the game what it needs, particularly in those World Cup semifinals, those games where there is lots on the line, that's a real sense of purpose to be like, I really do feel I'm the right person to be able to deliver what this game needs so that ultimately the players can put on a spectacle for the game.

the fans and I do think um you know when when emotions settle down and when decisions are made I get people are passionate but most people with uh you know the calmness of of day I think realize that like that is what ultimately all referees at at whatever sport at that international level are trying to achieve like they are all actually just trying to do a job so the players can can do what they want to do but at times we do have to be the you know I often think of it like I A river has to have, you know, boundaries.