Different with Steve Chalke and Jill Rowe
Jul 29, 2026 · 34 min · 11 segments
In this episode of the Different podcast, Jill Rowe talks with Steve Chalke about getting to 'the thing behind the thing'. They discuss how easy it is to not go upstream and discover the root causes…
Steve ChalkeHost
Jill RoweHost
A wise person once said to me, Jill, it's really important to always think about what's the thing behind the thing? And I thought, that's a profound statement.
But it made me think about that illustration of, People drowning in the river, Steve.
Oh, that illustration of, yeah, well, don't they always say, I think it's true, what we've got to do is go upstream.
And it's all related to this famous quote that everybody disputes who first said it, you know, was it William Booth or, you know, all sorts of people.
But the point was instead of trying to fish people out of the river downstream who've fallen in and are drowning, Why don't we go upstream and find out why they keep falling in and perhaps build a bridge across the river so that no one falls in? And in life, of course, whether it's personal or it's individual or whether it's a systemic thing, very often we find ourselves addressing, oh, all these kids have fallen in the river, all these elderly people have fallen in the river, all these young people have fallen into addiction or whatever, and that's been horrific for them.
Instead of just trying to fish them out, why don't we go back and find out why it is that all this is breaking down and build a bridge there, which might be in the form of a new policy for government, which might be in the form of some new relationships,
So by utilising that kind of illustration, the thing behind the thing is, So you hear a lot.
A wise person once said to me, Jill, it's really important to always think about what's the thing behind the thing? And I thought, that's a profound statement.
But it made me think about that illustration of, People drowning in the river, Steve.
Oh, that illustration of, yeah, well, don't they always say, I think it's true, what we've got to do is go upstream.
And it's all related to this famous quote that everybody disputes who first said it, you know, was it William Booth or, you know, all sorts of people.
But the point was instead of trying to fish people out of the river downstream who've fallen in and are drowning, Why don't we go upstream and find out why they keep falling in and perhaps build a bridge across the river so that no one falls in? And in life, of course, whether it's personal or it's individual or whether it's a systemic thing, very often we find ourselves addressing, oh, all these kids have fallen in the river, all these elderly people have fallen in the river, all these young people have fallen into addiction or whatever, and that's been horrific for them.
Instead of just trying to fish them out, why don't we go back and find out why it is that all this is breaking down and build a bridge there, which might be in the form of a new policy for government, which might be in the form of some new relationships,
So by utilising that kind of illustration, the thing behind the thing is, So you hear a lot.
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