But I wonder if you're at all concerned that just given the sheer number of efforts that the Trump administration has rhetorically made, that the Department of Justice is in the process of systematically making, if you're worried that there's going to at all just be this environment of fear that casts a shadow— and potentially keeps people who are confused or concerned at home.

I am.

And that's one of the reasons we must have conspicuous courage.

We must march to the polls together and overwhelm both.

90 million people stayed home in the last election.

The Congress that we have is only there because of 7,000 votes.

If you do that, when you stay home, you actually open up The retrogressors is what I like to call them.

How do you make sure people feel empowered and inspired at a time when so much of this is in their faces?

or before even marches to the polls, planning marches to voter registration.

Planning marches to have voter registration and having rallies that help people to understand what's going on.

Listen, 600 actions going on that day and 600 movements were happening around the country.

We cannot grandiose and have this nostalgia about 63 without understanding.

The movement had been broken apart.

But they had the 64, what would be the 64 Civil Rights Act had been proposed.

And what Bayard Rustin said is we got to pull everybody together to make sure this legislation doesn't get stopped by Strom Thurmond and Jesse Hamm.

Barber, what do you think is the singular issue or the few issues that are going to be the strongest for getting people to be conspicuous and do that marching? We know people often say they don't feel like politics affects them, but obviously we're at an inflection point, so I'd like to see what you're hearing on the ground and what you think will move people.

How, how does, how do you view July 4th on this 250th anniversary?

Well, Frederick Douglass knew, Jonathan, that the country was in a constant mode of trying to be a more perfect nation, and it was deeply flawed.

He knew that religious and moral leaders could not participate in the lie.

They were u- there was attempts to use July 4th to cover up the ugliness of slavery, to cover up the ugliness of violence, and Frederick said, "No, it can't be that.

Our national holidays have to be about repentance, have to be about, uh, restoration, and it has to be about what kind of vision we truly embrace, and we have to have truth-telling." That is why right now, in that spirit, m- moral and religious leaders and, and impacted people, we must challenge the dangerous revisionist kind of, uh, activity going on with a powerful, determined, uh, vision rooted in our deepest moral and religious values and our deepest constitutional values.

What I mean by that, well, clergy, Jonathan, every Monday at 5:00 have been going in front of the White House, talking to thousands all night, putting up a public pulpit, taking to the streets during, um, uh, rush hour to put forth a vision that challenges this revisionist history.

Clergy, moral leaders, religious leaders, impacted people, poor and low-wage people.

... what are the most, what's the most important thing, do you think, that the American people need to understand about that?

And then they're able to go out and be advocates for people who really are suffering right now in this city from fear and terror because of ice raids, for example.

So let me run through some broad strokes that would, as I said, you asked these questions that would be, you coming to Yale, that would be a class in and of themselves.

Because what we are in is a crisis of civilization and a crisis of morality and a crisis of faith, really.

I was talking to someone who as an expert in authoritarianism.

And they said, one of the things authoritarians do is they get people to adjust their morality.

They get people to disassociate themselves from just basic human rights.

That's a fundamental part of authoritarianism working, right? But I want to run some broad strokes that I think we'd have to unpack.

I would love for the two of you to very— to tell why as people of faith you think it is important to uphold the values of secular democracy as Christians?

You know, Joy, we go to church on Sundays and synagogue on Saturdays and temple and mosque on Fridays every week.

week.The Bible tells us we should have a pulpit in the street in front of the halls of power every week.

There was never meant to be quarantine.

The truth of the, the gospel, the truth of the prophets was never meant to be quarantined, right? It should be in the street.

It should be laying out both a critique of policy.

I think in, we're reading in Jeremiah 22, it says, "Go down to the palace and tell the king these seven things: Stop killing people.

Stop mistreating the immigrants.

Which is where the potential-

We have to be building out databases of people across the country, in states, in cities, in neighborhoods, in communities, down to the block, down to the street, down to the house.

Exactly right, Roland.

The extremists, nationalists, white nationalists and others, touch their people 12 times.

before the election, 12 times.

And what we have to do and what we're doing, you know, and by the way, I have a good announcement.

We are almost at 2,000.

The call that you and I made for black men to come and be trained is almost 2,000 now on this Saturday.

But any kind of process of conversation around civics, which, of course, has been taken out of so many of our education systems.

Mm.

It's only a beginning for those politicians that will clearly say what they're for, not just what they're against.

And it has to be because we're committing to a 10-year massive turnout.

W- we cannot be in this democracy and own our power when 40 to 50, sometimes 60% of our own people are staying home.

21% of Black men voted for Trump and for MAGA.

Uh, w- with the only place we can expand the vote, the power to vote right now, is with un-, uh, uh, uh, uh, poor and low wage vo- infrequent voters.

19 million of them, uh, Tavis, that voted for Biden/Harris when Biden did talk about it, they didn't get it done, living wages and, and fixing the voting rights act, 19 million of them stayed home.

How do we mobilize, bishop? It's all yours.

Um, can you talk about what you participated in yesterday, Redirect 250, as a direct counter to the religious nationalist festival, the differences between a government-imposed prayer event or supported, taxpayer-supported, and a grassroots movement?

Well, thank you.

First of all, Amy, let me say a little bit about this whole event because, uh, yesterday, of course, many people were in Montgomery, Alabama, retracing the steps of Dr.

King.

We deeply supported it.

I was actually in, at Yale, uh, graduating students in public policy and public theology that takes on this very kind of, uh, heresy that we saw, uh, uh, in Washington, DC.

But the prophets and preachers are supposed to be the conscience of the nation.

This is not a golden calf."

Um, can you talk about what you participated in yesterday, Redirect 250, as a direct counter to the religious nationalist festival, the differences between a government-imposed prayer event or supported, taxpayer-supported, and a grassroots movement?

Well, thank you.

First of all, Amy, let me say a little bit about this whole event because, uh, yesterday, of course, many people were in Montgomery, Alabama, retracing the steps of Dr.

King.

We deeply supported it.

I was actually in, at Yale, uh, graduating students in public policy and public theology that takes on this very kind of, uh, heresy that we saw, uh, uh, in Washington, DC.

But the prophets and preachers are supposed to be the conscience of the nation.

Um, one of the pastors, Mark Burns, defended it on social media, uh, saying, "Let me say this plainly, this is not a golden calf."

Um, can you talk about what you participated in yesterday, Redirect 250, as a direct counter to the religious nationalist festival, the differences between a government-imposed prayer event or supported, taxpayer-supported, and a grassroots movement?

Well, thank you.

First of all, Amy, let me say a little bit about this whole event because, uh, yesterday, of course, many people were in Montgomery, Alabama, retracing the steps of Dr.

King.

We deeply supported it.

I was actually in, at Yale, uh, graduating students in public policy and public theology that takes on this very kind of, uh, heresy that we saw, uh, uh, in Washington, DC.

But the prophets and preachers are supposed to be the conscience of the nation.

This is not a golden calf."

Um, can you talk about what you participated in yesterday, Redirect 250, as a direct counter to the religious nationalist festival, the differences between a government-imposed prayer event or supported, taxpayer-supported, and a grassroots movement?

Well, thank you.

First of all, Amy, let me say a little bit about this whole event, because, uh, yesterday, of course, many people were in Montgomery, Alabama, retracing the steps of Dr.

King.

We deeply supported it.

I was actually in, at Yale, uh, graduating students in public policy and public theology that takes on this very kind of, uh, heresy that we saw, uh, uh, in Washington, DC.

But the prophets and preachers are supposed to be the conscience of the nation.

This is not a golden calf."

How does that land with you when you see that in the culture? Well, it is sickening.

It's frightening, but it also means we have to have a moral challenge to this kind of greed and gluttony that is even willing to use the things that are supposed to be for the public good only for private greed and private wealth.

And there's a great scripture, Steve, that says, under whom much is given, much is required.

But these folk have twisted it.

Under whom much is taken, we get to take more.

It's a twisting of the scripture.

And now, They have a, quote, Messiah figure that okays it.

But what do you think that you're looking for for a moral leader to really get your attention and be like, wow, that's the medicine we need, more of that?

Place yourself and the, and the clergy in this current battle that we're in for the soul of America.

Well, it is the soul of America and the soul of civilization.

We're in a crisis of civilization.

You know, uh, Saint Valentine was beheaded for standing up to the authoritarian of his day.

He chose love over hate.

Uh, Frederick Douglass said it was the love of his mother that kept him fighting against slavery.

Faith and love and justice is the very thing that authoritarians hate, because they want hate, division, and they want to twist religion to serve oppression rather than to serve justice.

How do you navigate the idea that in your mind, those things are inseparable, right? If you are part of a, a mission to guide people morally, then you also put yourself in the line, uh, to, to protest those things, and in your particular case, again, get, get yourself arrested.

Can you reflect on the significance, the life and legacy of Jesse Jackson, Bishop Barber?

Thank you so much, Amy and Juan.

We just left a fifty-mile walk, uh, in North Carolina.

It's time to love forward together.

This is our Selma, and in many ways, the way we organized it was what I learned with Jesse Jackson, broad and deep, Black and white and brown and young and old and gay and straight and Asian and Indigenous and multi-policy, uh, focused.

Jesse Jackson, uh, when I met him forty years ago as a student, uh, he asked me to work with his, um, student campaign when he was running for president in nineteen eighty-four.

And what we heard in him was not a politician.

Wondering if you could briefly, uh, tell us why.

Can you reflect on the significance, the life and legacy of Jesse Jackson, Bishop Arbor?

Thank you so much, Amy and Juan.

We just left a 50-mile walk in North Carolina.

It's time to love forward together.

This is our Selma.

And in many ways, the way we organized it was what I learned with Jesse Jackson, broad and deep, black and white and brown and young and old and gay and straight and Asian and indigenous and multi-policy focused.

Jesse Jackson, when I met him 40 years ago as a student, He asked me to work with his student campaign when he was running for president in 1984.

I'm wondering if you could briefly tell us why.

Can you reflect on the significance, the life and legacy of Jesse Jackson, Bishop Barber?

Thank you so much, Amy and Juan.

We just left a fifty-mile walk, uh, in North Carolina.

It's time to love forward together.

This is our Selma, and in many ways, the way we organized it was what I learned with Jesse Jackson: broad and deep, Black and white and brown and young and old, and gay and straight, and Asian and Indigenous, and multi-policy, uh, focused.

Jesse Jackson, uh, when I met him forty years ago as a student, uh, he asked me to work with his, um, student campaign when he was running for president in nineteen eighty-four.

And what we heard in him was not a politician.

Wondering if you could briefly, uh, tell us why.

Uh, what would it look like to actually have a president be a moral leader?

Well, let me start...

Th- this is heavy, Jonathan, because religious nationalists have helped feed this into Trump because they've taught him that he's some kind of Messiah figure, uh, like Cyrus in the Bible.

Terrible exegesis, bad, and he really thinks his own morality is kind of his own God wannabe-ness, and so in his mind, whatever he does is wrong.

It's a kind of, of sick, uh, uh, psychosis, narcissistic.

But a true moral leader would be a leader that says, "I am constrained.

I'm constrained by the Constitution to establish justice, not injustice.

Mm

Can you talk about the protests around immigration raids and then what you're talking about when it comes to health care and other issues right now?

Thank you so much, Amy.

We had Moral Monday in 20 states yesterday.

And in North Carolina, we had two, one at 12 o'clock, one at 7 o'clock.

And the focus is to connect the dots and to bring people out of every different race, creed, and color.

We were in Charlotte because the ICE raids came.

We knew they were coming.

What's your sense of the kind of solidarities that are being built between black and brown communities in North Carolina right now?

Uh, can you talk about w- the protests around immigration raids, and then what you're talking about when it comes to healthcare and other issues right now?

Well, thank you so much, Amy.

We had, um, Moral Monday in 20 states yesterday.

And in North Carolina, we had two, one at 12 o'clock, one at 7 o'clock.

And the focus is to connect the dots, and to bring people out of every different race, creed, and color.

We were in Charlotte because the ICE raids came.

We knew they were coming.

What's your sense of the kind of solidarities that are being built between Black and brown communities, uh, in North Carolina right now?

Joining us from Raleigh, North Carolina, Welcome to Democracy Now! Your response to the assassination of Charlie Kirk, Bishop of Arbor.

I paused for a minute, Amy, because of the last statement that you made where you said that they removed the study.

where the facts did not line up with the narrative that the president, Stephen Miller, and others were seeking to put out.

I'll come back to that, but I just had to stop for a moment.

I want people to hear that who are listening in.

You know, this past week, there was a brutal on-camera assassination of Brother Charlie Kirk, and we must all despise it.

As one, I've known what it means to live with people who send you threats and want to see your demise.

Could you could you talk about that?

Welcome to Democracy Now! Your response to the assassination of Charlie Kirk, Bishop Barber.

I pause for a minute, Amy, because of the last statement that you made, where you said that they removed the study where the facts did not line up with the, uh, narrative that the president, Stephen Miller, and others were seeking to put out.

And I just had to ...

I'll come back to that, but I just had to stop for a moment.

I want people to hear that, who are listening in.

You know, this past week, there was a brutal on-camera assassination of brother Charlie Kirk, and we must all despise it.

As one, I've known what it means to live with people who send you threats and want to see, uh, your demise.

I wanted to ask you, during a recent speech at a Senator Bernie Sanders rally in North Carolina, you called Christian nationalism, quote, "heresy by another name." Uh, could you, uh, could you talk about that?

Yeah.

Stacey, let me run through some broad strokes that would, as I said, you asked these questions that would be, you coming to Yale, that would be a class in and of themselves.

Because what we are in is a crisis of civilization and a crisis of morality and a crisis of faith, really.

I was talking to someone who as an expert in authoritarianism.

And they said, one of the things authoritarians do is they get people to adjust their morality.

They get people to disassociate themselves from just basic human rights.

That's a fundamental part of authoritarianism working, right? But I want to run some broad strokes that I think we'd have to unpack.

I would love for the two of you to very— to tell why, as people of faith, you think it is important to uphold the values of secular democracy as Christians?

Talk about why.

Thank you so much, Amy.

And I was talking to Joan Baez about this the other day, about how ugly the times are and how we must stand.

And we've got to sharpen our language.

I was arrested with others and we were arrested in the rotunda for simply praying about the ugliness of this bill and people who represent thousands, hundreds of thousands of people.

Religious congregants were arrested, and we're going back June 2nd for a mass Moral Monday sponsored by Repairs of Breach and 20 other partners, because we have to stand up in this moment.

This is a big, ugly, destructive, deadly bill.

What is your response to how people should resist or deal with the maneuvers in Congress in these coming days?

Talk about why.

why.Thank you so much, Amy.

And I was talking to Joan Baez about this the other day, about how ugly the times are ahead and how we must stand.

And we've got to sharpen our language.

Uh, I was arrested with others, and we were arrested in the rotunda for simply praying about the ugliness of this bill.

And people who represent thousands, hundreds of thousands of religious, uh, congregants were arrested.

And we're going back June 2nd, uh, for a mass Moral Monday sponsored by Repairs of Breach and 20 other partners because we have to stand up in this moment.

Uh, what is y- your response to how people should, um, uh, resist or deal, uh, with the, uh, maneuvers in Congress in these coming days?

Your thoughts on putting history and this moment together and what you were demanding on Wednesday.

Well, thank you so much, Amy.

As I was listening to that song, We Shall Overcome, there's another line that says we are not afraid.

And I want to thank Representative Greene for his courage and showing the way of courage.

He's a dear friend of mine.

He's exactly right.

You cannot wait until a dictator is in charge.

Can you talk about that in the report that you all came out with?