So I'm curious if people who come in hating someone from a rival gang member or another ethnic group or racial group, is it also about getting to know them?

[lip smack] Yeah, I mean, uh, the truth of the matter is you can't demonize people you know.

That's untenable for human beings.

And so, you know, we have enemies who are right behind me here in the bakery who are making croissants together, and initially they won't talk to each other because they used to shoot at each other.

But give it some time and, and you cannot demonize people you know, and once you know people...

I mean, does that always happen? It always happens.

I mean, it's as predictable as can be.

It's still awful." You know, I'm curious in those situations when you meet someone who is just, you know, dead set against listening and dead set against, you know, any sort of conversion, where do you go from there?

How did life and your faith lead you to build a gang rehabilitation and reentry program?

Well, partly by necessity.

I mean, because I was a pastor of the poorest parish in Los Angeles, and we had eight gangs at war with each other in two public housing projects, which made up my parish.

And the LAPD called my parish the place of the highest concentration of gang activity in all of Los Angeles.

So I've buried 263 young people killed because of gang violence over these 40 years.

And so we were responding in an immediate way to what was right in front of us.

But it never occurred to me to just sort of denounce gang violence because it became clear that gang violence was about something else.

I know both of you have spoken about it a great deal, but I want you, Father Boyle, to really talk about how Christian nationalism is not simply antithetical to Christianity, but harmful to society.

How does healing happen, and what's the role of mental health methodologies and therapies involved in that? So let's start with, how does healing happen?

I don't think healing is so formulaic.

You know, I think if you believe in how the cumulative dosing effect of cherishing is, you can observe it, and you go, "Wow, this person is being bombarded with folks who know his name and who remember him and put their arm around him and ask about how's, how's that baby.

You know, are you sleeping, you know, at night, is-- with the newborn?" Or whatever it is.

All of a sudden, everybody's dosing from the security guy, too.

So I must admit, in the early days when we shifted to the healing model, even I thought, "Oh, okay, finally, there's an openness to therapy," that that was the, the exclusive arena where the healing happened.

Now I-- it's just one of many.

What makes for a good therapist?