Why the secrecy for a criminal trial?

Yeah, I think, you know, when it comes to intelligence, it's always a challenge because on the one hand, you have to protect the state, you have to protect the programs, you have to protect the work that has been done because of the nature of the work that has been done.

But your challenge is that it costs money.

And that money is normally derived from the secret funds.

We see it with your national security agency, but we also see it with your crime intelligence agency.

You know, it is just a matter of how things work and the fact that it costs money.

Now, unfortunately, whenever it comes to these type of organizations, you have a balance.

So there is probably a lot more at stake here than related criminality, Willem.

In another first, the Matlanga Commission of Inquiry has instituted criminal action against a subpoenaed witness who did everything in his power to avoid testifying.

Yeah, well, you know, I think it started to play out quite early in the testimony of Mr. Karim.

And we saw that he came under a lot of scrutiny there.

He was not very comfortable.

We saw that his lawyers and his team really tried everything in the book in order to safeguard him, to shield him.

And then we see that when he had to, he was a pura to get to come back and continue with his testimony.

You know, there was at one stage they spoke about the Madlanga medical ward at the hospital because of all the witnesses that actually saw that liver.

Do you think we are entering a new era of policing in South Africa? I

Why is he not in an institution or being held in a place where he cannot harm others?

Indeed, and I think we need to ask those questions high up and more questions should be asked because what we gathered is that the police that attended the scene handed the IED back to his parents.

That is completely, completely against the law to do that.

And also the fact that no further charges were pursued, either from the mall, because the mall, they have to safeguard their inhabitants or the people that visit there.

And if that is how they are going to try to wipe things under the carpet, you know, it asks a lot of questions on the integrity of the security at that office or that mall.

But also the parents, they send him to the hospital in Maritsburg.

where I think he stayed there for two months and he was released.

We would never have known that he had planted the bomb if it were not for the FBI.

Why is this person even out there?

Yeah, I think there's a lot of questions to, uh, that need to be asked there.

The conduct of, of, first of all, the mall and then the police and also, uh, the, the, the, uh, parents of the, of this person.

Because, uh, what we, what we, uh, could gather from there is that he took, uh, this IED that he constructed, and he, he placed it, uh, near the coffee shops where everybody was having coffee.

And he went just outside the danger zone with a knife waiting for, uh, the bomb to, to, to detonate.

And once it detonated, he was going to wait for the people to run in his direction, where he was going to attack them, uh, with a knife.

So, uh, fortunately, uh, it was a low order, uh, detonation as we refer to that.

Why is he not in an institution or being held in a place where he cannot harm others?

Can that help?

I think it's a very good question, but, you know, desperate times calls for the, for, for, for desperate measures.

Uh, and, and that is why, uh, the, uh, the, uh, state president already, uh, announced that the military will be in- involved.

They will help in the Cape Flats with the gangs, but also, uh, with, uh, the illegal mining.

Now, we see that, uh, ev- uh, ever since they were, were deployed, uh, that, uh, it did not have really the desired effect.

Uh, it also, uh, you know, uh, placed some question marks under the strategies under which they have been deployed.

Uh, let me just take one step back and understand.

Firstly, uh, the, the officials nationally, that is provincially, nationally, et cetera, everybody who needs to get, to get involved here, how seriously are they taking it? And if they're not, how seriously should they be taking what appears to be a security threat?

I mean, how would you collate the brief differences between all three?

Yeah, I think, yeah, there are differences between them.

If you look at a serial killer, if we can focus on that, you know, what makes it so difficult in order to identify and to investigate a serial killer is, in most cases, this serial killer would go out, he will use a certain modus operandi, or she, a certain modus operandi, and how they perpetrate their murder, they will start to play cat and mouse games with the investigators, and then they can blend into the community.

Many of them have got a regular job, they've got families, But then they go on the prowl and they satisfy their urge for killing and then they move back into that society again.

That makes it very difficult to actually investigate and also to arrest these people.

But that motivation, how does one draw any parallel to previous serial killers, maybe even this one year as well, by way of a need and a motivation

yeah once again if you look at that history and you look at the at the serial killers that have been convicted you will see that with all of them there was a triggering uh fact many of them at the well you know they had an incident in the past some of them were were abused by women uh when they were young etc etc so we see that in many cases that seems to be a trigger that stays with them.

And then when they get the opportunity or when it comes to time for them now that they start to perpetrate, they then, you know, that is a driver that is actually driving them.

And what are the clearest indications of that reality?

Yeah, I think the reality is, you know, South Africa is for a very long time now been part of what is referred to as a southern route.

Now, the southern route's got two entry points in South Africa.

The one is from South America, where your cocaine is coming from.

And then along the east coast of Africa, all the way from Yemen down to Mozambique, we've got what they refer to as the Saheli Coast.

But also that has been a trading route, an ancient trading route for at least a thousand years.

And now the drug syndicates have infiltrated them and they use that route to bring heroin and also synthetic drugs down to South Africa where it was distributed.

Willem, what level of one expertise and then financing, infrastructure and all of that is required to actually establish these laboratories that we are seeing more and more often where police are having these takedowns?

How much, Willem, does that rate differ between different crimes such as murder, robbery and assault? Is it bad all the way around?

It's bad all the way around.

But if you look at robberies, our detection rate is more or less 9%.

And what about the others? Murder itself is just about 10%.

And yeah, some of them, you know, what happens if it's an easy crime, if there are witnesses and there's a lot of information that can be followed up, they do so and then you get arrested.

The challenge is that, you know, your average detective, some of them, they receive up to 200 new case files or dockets per month to investigate.

And there's just no way that they can thoroughly do that.

That's even a bigger problem to turn around.

How much, Willem, does that rate differ between different crimes such as murder, robbery and assault? Is it bad all the way around?

It's bad all the way around.

But if you look at robberies, our detection rate is more or less 9%.

And what about the others? Murder itself is just about 10%.

And yeah, some of them, you know, what happens if it's an easy crime, if there are witnesses and there's a lot of information that can be followed up, they do so and then you get arrested.

The challenge is that, you know, your average detective, some of them, they receive up to 200 new case files or dockets per month to investigate.

And there's just no way that they can thoroughly do that.

That's even a bigger problem to turn around.

So how do highly scheduled or, and regulated substances get into the hands of these criminals?

Well, uh, in the first place, you know, it is, it is, uh, one of the things that they, or the methods that they use is that they do, uh, uh, pharmacy hopping.

That means they go to the first pharmacy and they buy as many as they can, then they go to the second one, especially your independent pharmacies that are not linked.

Like, for instance, if you go to your bigger chains, you know, they've got one system and they can see how mu- wha- what was dispensed to you, et cetera.

But if, if you're ind- you're independent and you're smaller pharmacies, they are not connected in any way.

So they can go to as many as they want and they can buy, can buy as many of these bottles as they want because it is, uh, it is not restricted.

So there's no central database for all the pharmacies to use that can flag these people.

No.

What resources do they have availa- available to aid them, or are they struggling?

Chris, yeah, I think that's a very good question.

You know, uh, across board with your police agencies or your po- police units, uh, we seem to have quite a severe shortage, not only in manpower, but also in resources.

That is from, uh, your computers, uh, and the other, other resources that they need to do with the investigations.

Uh, but also, uh, in, in, it comes down to transportation.

You can't have one, one, uh, uh, unit that's got access to one or two vehicles, and you've got 10 or 15 people working at that unit.

It just doesn't make sense.

I mean, w- we often hear South Africa is lo- losing the war on drugs, uh, but then you have these few dedicated officers doing everything they can, battling against the odds.

Here's Willem Els on the NDB Sunday Show.

I think it's a very important question, especially in the, in the wake of, of what happened.

Uh, we must just first, uh, reiterate that, uh, the, the police, uh, is investigating, the Hawks investigating.

Uh, the c- case is ongoing, so we do not know a lot about, uh, the case itself apart from what emanated in the press, but also what we could have, uh, delved and, and, and, and, and put out of his, uh, his, his, uh, manifesto that was online.

So, so that is, that is, uh, really, uh, troublesome because along with the, the recipe, he had a plan of action, and he stipulated, he really pla- stipulated out his plan of action and his intent on what to do.

Uh, now he wanted to use and what we, we refer to as an IED or an i- improvised explosive device.

And, uh, he said he's going to, to a- add some nails, uh, to the, to the device in order to kill and maim as, as many people as possible.

How dangerous a bomb was this boy making, or had he made?

Yeah, thank you for that.

I think it's a very important question, especially in the, in the wake of, of what happened.

Uh, we must just first, uh, reiterate that, uh, the, the police, uh, is investigating.

The Hawks are investigating.

Uh, the c- case is ongoing, so we do not know a lot about, uh, the case itself apart from what emanated in the press, but also what we could have, uh, delved and, and, and, and, and put out of his, uh, his, his, uh, manifesto that was online.

So, so that is, that is, uh, really, uh, troublesome because along with the, the recipe, he had a plan of action, and he stipulated, he really pla- stipulated out his plan of action and his intent on what to do.

A very complicated intellectualization of Certain philosophies

Check out biznews.com for more.

For a long time, we've been warn- we've been warning about your, your prevalence of the so-called a lone wolf scenario in South Africa.

You know, we had quite a few attacks in the past, uh, but, uh, the lone wolf scenario is one of your most difficult scenarios to keep a tab on in terms of, in terms of intelligence because this person tends to work alone and, and, and they function alone.

Uh, they are not, they don't have a visible, uh, profile on the internet n- uh, normally, and, and, and also they don't discuss their, their, their intentions with a lot of people.

So the very, very first time that your intelligence will maybe pick it up is when they maybe, uh, uh, publish a manifest, uh, like what we saw in this, uh, in this incident where it was placed on, on, on Telegram.

And un- unfortunately, it seems that our intelligence service still did not pick that up, and at the end of the day, after they have been informed by the FBI about this incident that took place, they actually started to act on it.

There are so many red flags in how this case has been handled.

Exactly.

The, the explosive device that smoked but didn't detonate was returned to his mother, and only after the FBI warned the Hawks was he placed in a psychiatric hospital for a while, but then he turned up back at the mall just the other day on the 1st of July.

Exactly.

You know, if you, if you look at your legislation, of course, we, we believe and we also advocate the rule of law.

So, and that, that, that is also, uh, applicable to the police as well.

So in terms of your legislation, if you look at the Poctara Act, that is your, your, your Counter-Terrorism Act, and also if you look at your criminal law, uh, you know, there are some obligations on the police when something like this happens.

So we see that the case was not registered, and when the mother didn't want to register the case, uh, they actually returned the device, the explosive device that was illegally in his possession to his mother.

That was also not according to law because now she also committed a crime.

Well, Willem, I think you can tell viewers from what you know and from your engagement with international terrorism experts how big the threat on South African soil really is and how local authorities have not really, uh, taken that on board.

What was that warning based on?

Yeah, I think that's a very good question.

You know, back then we were still with the ENACT program that worked across Africa on organized crime, and, uh, that, that became quite a, a, a contentious issue here in South Africa, but not limited, uh, to, to South Africa.

We identified that as a, uh, a- as a regional challenge and maybe also a continental challenge.

But having focused on our part of the r- of the r- the, the co- continent, we, uh, we, we looked at that.

But, uh, that is why it is we are so fortunate because the author of, of, of that opinion piece, uh, is actually joining us today.

What makes Southern Africa such a lucrative market?

Uh, indeed.

And, you know, Africa itself, it became the dumping ground of a lot of things, uh, uh, especially, uh, on the crime, uh, side of it.

But, uh, what makes South Africa so, so special and so lucrative for them, you know, we, we, we are the leading economy, uh, uh, in, in, in, in the region and, and also, uh, in, in, in most of Africa.

We've got a, a, a very good banking system.

We've got a lot of our communications, or, you know, the infrastructure that is here that is, is, is wonderful for, for, for business, is wonderful for communications, but it also serves as a very good tool for your organized crime syndicates.

A- a- and add to that the, the, the, the gaps in governments, the porous borders, the, the lack of policy, uh, uh, uh, sort of, uh, uh, application, uh, the, the rule of law that is not always applied, et cetera.

Well, still on the topic of organized crime, I'm sure you have seen the breaking news that a magistrate has refused, uh, or rejected the plea deal by tenderpreneur Kat Matlala.

The full interview is on biznews.com.

Your medical loan that is being used to prepare, uh, the, the, the, uh, the mandrax, it, uh, it, it can be locally manufactured.

They can mix it here, or they can smuggle it in like what they did, uh, when they did the bust of the just over 700 kilometers, uh, kilograms at, uh, at Beitbridge, uh, about, about a month ago.

So, so it is the freely availability of, of the precursor, uh, and, and also the relative ease to prepare, uh, the mandrax in your, in your clandestine laboratories.

So what they then do is, uh, they would take a, the, the gland, they prepare it, they mix it, and then, uh, they, they actually, uh, set it into a pill.

So it's, it's like a round tablet, and, uh, and then they sell it.

It is safe.

The full interview is on biznews.com.

I think we are here today, uh, because of what hap- happened about, uh, almost a year ago on the 6th of July, when he had that, uh, that infamous and that really, uh, uh, that, that groundbreaking interview where he, uh, came up with the allegations.

And the center of those allegations were that the drug cartels that are actually taking over the police, government, and, and, and, and, and that they are b- having it their way.

And, uh, of course, we saw the, the ad hoc committee.

We saw what is going on in, in the Madlanga Commission.

At the moment, it revealed a lot.

It shocked, really, it, it shook the nation.

I was just going to ask you, the rest of the world moved on, but Mandrax has stayed popular, very popular in South Africa, and the latest drug bust proved that once again.

Yeah.

You know, uh, uh, uh, there, there are various reasons for that.

And, uh, uh, the first one is that, you know, your methaqualone that is being used to prepare, uh, the, the, the, uh, the Mandrax.

It, uh, it, it can be locally manufactured.

They can mix it here, or they can smuggle it in like what they did when they did the bust of the just over 700 kilometers, uh, uh, kilograms at, uh, at Beitbridge, uh, about, about a month ago.

So, so it is the freely availability of, of the precursor, uh, and, and also the relative ease to prepare, uh, the Mandrax in your, in your clandestine laboratories.

What are your recommendations?