Now we'll hear from Toby Young on his recent trip to Islay and what he makes of Scotland's whisky industry.

Is demand for the water of life running dry? I've just returned from a trip to Islay in Scotland which has more whisky distilleries per square mile than anywhere else in the UK and several of its famous single malts are struggling.

Suntory, which owns Beaumont and Laphroaig, announced in February that it was merging the staff of the two brands, with Beaumont ceasing production until the end of the year and Laphroaig putting its planned expansion on hold.

Meanwhile, Sainsbury's recently dropped the price of a bottle of eight-year-old Lagavulin to £40, down from its recommended retail price of £52.50. Are we in the foothills of a global whisky recession? Alice, from the Lagavulin Visitors' Centre, who took Caroline and me on a tour on Sunday morning, seemed fairly bullish.

She pointed out that the Diageo-owned distillery is still producing about 2.5 million litres of pure alcohol each year, enough for 8 million bottles, although not that many will reach the shelves.

Production had momentarily halted during our visit due to a boiler fault, but it's usually a 24-7 operation, with the sturdy machinery – some of it older than her, she told us – still belching out the raw ingredients.

She remained good-humoured, even after I told her my favourite local tipple was Laphroaig, a deadly rival.

Now we'll hear from Toby Young on his recent trip to Islay and what he makes of Scotland's whisky industry.

Is demand for the water of life running dry? I've just returned from a trip to Islay in Scotland, which has more whisky distilleries per square mile than anywhere else in the UK and several of its famous single malts are struggling.

Suntory, which owns Beaumont and Laphroaig, announced in February that it was merging the staff of the two brands, with Beaumont ceasing production until the end of the year and Laphroaig putting its planned expansion on hold.

Meanwhile, Sainsbury's recently dropped the price of a bottle of eight-year-old Lagavulin to £40, down from its recommended retail price of £52.50. Are we in the foothills of a global whisky recession? Alice, from the Lagavulin Visitors' Centre, who took Caroline and me on a tour on Sunday morning, seemed fairly bullish.

She pointed out that the Diageo-owned distillery is still producing about 2.5 million litres of pure alcohol each year, enough for 8 million bottles, although not that many will reach the shelves.

Production had momentarily halted during our visit due to a boiler fault, but it's usually a 24-7 operation, with the sturdy machinery – some of it older than her, she told us – still belching out the raw ingredients.

She remained good-humoured, even after I told her my favourite local tipple was Laphroaig, a deadly rival.

And what would you say to critics of these donations who argue that it's not just about the money, it's actually about buying influence and that fundamentally goes against British democracy? Do you think that that's a fair criticism?

This is more hypocrisy from the Labour Party.

I mean...

I know Ben Delo a little bit, and I can say hand on heart, I don't think he's trying to buy influence.

He's certainly not pursuing any self-interest here.

He's no longer involved in cryptocurrency dealing.

I can't see how he could directly benefit from this donation.

But how are they actually going to spend it?

Could you tell listeners or viewers who may not be aware, but of course should be aware, what The Modern Review was and why they should be reading it today?

So The Modern Review was a magazine that I co-founded with Julie Birchall and her then-husband, Cosmo Landesman, in 1991.

So the first issue was published in this month, 35 years ago.

And at the time, it had quite a kind of novel idea.

which was to get academics, intellectuals, critics to write long, thoughtful scholarly pieces about things like Arnold Schwarzenegger, Noel Edmonds, the Porky's franchise.

And at that time, the general attitude towards mass culture, particularly the kind of lower end of mass culture, increased.

Amongst the broadsheets was one of kind of, it was just an object of humorous disdain.

You're a fool.

Could you tell listeners or viewers who may not be aware, but of course should be aware, what the Modern Review was and why they should be reading it today?

So The Modern Review was a magazine that I co-founded with Julie Birchall and her then-husband, Cosmo Landesman, in 1991.

So the first issue was published in this month, 35 years ago.

And at the time, it had quite a kind of novel idea.

which was to get academics, intellectuals, critics to write long, thoughtful scholarly pieces about things like Arnold Schwarzenegger, Noel Edmonds, the Porky's franchise.

And at that time, the general attitude towards mass culture, particularly the kind of lower end of mass culture, increased.

Amongst the broadsheets was one of kind of, it was just an object of humorous disdain.

I really regret that.

Are you worried that people's free speech on blasphemy and criticizing religion, one religion specifically, is that going to be more of a problem as we move forward?

Yes.

sectarian Muslims become a much more powerful voting bloc in the UK over the past few years.

And there is now a national campaign called the Muslim Vote, which tries to direct Muslims how to vote in order to maximize their political influence.

And at the last general election in July 2024, five Gaza supporting independence Muslims won seats in parliament.

And there were many more labor seats in which the gap between the Labour victor and the Gaza supporting independent was extremely narrow.

And so the Labour Party is extremely worried about losing more seats at the next election to Gaza supporting independence.

Lastly...

That was Freddie Heffer and finally Toby Young.

It's the friendly fire that really hurts.

Should I regret writing a satirical piece for this magazine about Jason Arday? Yes, according to those who blame the right-wing media for his death.

A petition started by Jolyon Maugham this week calling for a public inquiry into the press harassment of Arday has gained more than 100,000 signatures.

A letter from Dawn Butler MP to IPSO urges the independent press regulator to use every available lever to take decisive action against the Times, Telegraph, Mail and Spectator.

Alan Rusbridger, the former editor of The Guardian, has named me as a particularly egregious offender, while the novelist Will Self has called for the journalists who exposed Arday's wrongdoing to be prosecuted.

It's impossible at this stage to know the exact circumstances surrounding the 41-year-old academic's death, but I think it's unlikely the right-wing media played a big part.

It's the friendly

fire that really hurts.

Should I regret writing a satirical piece for this magazine about Jason Arday?

Yes, according to those who

blame the right-wing media for his death.

A petition started by Jolyon Maugham this week calling for a public inquiry into the press harassment of Arday has gained more than 100,000 signatures.

A letter from Dawn Butler MP to Ipsow urges the independent press regulator to use every available lever to take decisive action against The Times, Telegraph, Mail and Spectator.

Alan Rusbridger, the former editor of The Guardian, has named me as a particularly egregious offender, while the novelist Will Self has called for the journalists who exposed Arday's wrongdoing to be prosecuted.

[laughs]

... um, uh, then, you know, and if, if your, if your tutor has told you that individual achievement and competence are symbols of white supremacy and should be derided, I mean, you know, uh, no employer is gonna take particularly seriously.

They're gonna have to move to, you know, making prospective employees sit tests, more rigorous interviews, and so on and so forth.

Uh, so universities as a means of communicating to employers that you're employable are becoming less and less valuable, not least because of the advent of AI.

Um, universities, as far as I can see, have got no plan in place to deal with the fact that students can now get two ones, if not firsts, simply by using Claude or ChatGPT without doing a stroke of work.

Um, and often I've heard from people who teach at universities that one way in which they respond to an essay handed in that's obviously been written by AI is to just respond by using an AI.

... who's written so much for The Spectator, uh, over the years about, uh, about schools and, and had a go at several education secretaries over the years, what your thoughts are on, on that as a standard.

It's telling that, um- Is it Hilary Cremin, the head of the Cambridge Education Department, where Jason Arday was appointed as a professor of the sociology of education.

[laughs]

... um, uh, then, you know...

And if, if your, if your tutor has told you that individual achievement and competence are symbols of white supremacy and should be derided, I mean, you know, uh, no employer is going to take particularly seriously.

They're going to have to move to, you know, making prospective employees sit tests, more rigorous interviews, and so on and so forth.

Uh, so universities as a means of communicating to employers that you're employable are becoming less and less valuable, not least because of the advent of AI.

Um, universities, as far as I can see, have got no plan in place to deal with the fact that students can now get two-ones if not firsts simply by using Claude or ChatGPT without doing a stroke of work.

Um, and often I've heard from people who teach at universities that one way in which they respond to an essay handed in that's obviously been written by AI is to just respond by using an AI.

... who's written so much for The Spectator, uh, over the years about, uh, about schools and, and had a go at several education secretaries over the years, what your thoughts are on, on that as a standard.

Sometimes things work

out much better than one could have imagined, as if God, looking down, had decided that, for whatever reason, a favour should be dispensed in my direction, a blessing, perhaps occasioned by my diligence and faith, perhaps not.

It's impossible to explain these benedictions.

Sufficient to say that on Sunday night, at the BAFTAs in the Royal Festival Hall, the angels looked kindly upon me.

I go to this bun fest every year, dressed appropriately in a dinner jacket and cummerbund, patent leather dress shoes and a bow tie.

I ought to point out that I do not receive an invitation to this glittering event.

No, I gain entrance through what is commonly known as gate crashing.

perpetually smirking, overrated, haggard, keffiyeh-wearing, herring-stenched drunk bucket.

What, what are your earliest memories of Rod?

I think I saw him around at The Spectator when he first started working for The Spectator, I guess under Matthew d'Ancona's fairly short-lived regime as editor, but he recruited Rod, so hats off to Matthew for that.

But I, I really kind of, um, got to know him better when Lloyd Evans and I wrote, um, a play about the three sex scandals that beset The Spectator in two thousand and four, and for a brief time, it was known as The Sextator as a consequence.

And it was difficult to leave Rod out of the play because he was one of the protagonists in one of those scandals.

He left his wife and the mother of his two children, um, on their honeymoon, I think in Malaysia, uh, to return to London.

I think he invented some excuse, uh, to her, but it turned out he was coming back to resume his affair with Alicia Monkton, um, the-- who was then a twenty-two-year-old employee of the magazine.

I think Rod was forty-four at the time.

I think it's probably fair to say lots of people think of Rod as being on the right, but I think he probably thought of himself as being on the left, wouldn't you say, Toby? I mean, how did, how do you kind of reconcile those two positions?

What, what are your earliest memories of Rod?

I think I saw him around at The Spectator when he first started working for The Spectator, I guess under Matthew d'Ancona's fairly short-lived regime as editor.

But he recruited Rod, so hats off to Matthew for that.

But I, I really kind of, um, got to know him better when Lloyd Evans and I wrote, um, a play about the three sex scandals that beset The Spectator in two thousand and four, and for a brief time it was known as The Sextator as a consequence.

And it was difficult to leave Rod out of the play because he was one of the protagonists in one of those scandals.

He left his wife and the mother of his two children, um, on their honeymoon, I think in Malaysia, uh, to return to London.

I think he invented some excuse, uh, to her, but it turned out he was coming back to resume his affair with Alicia Monkton, um, the... who was then a twenty-two-year-old employee of the magazine.

[chuckles]

Mm-hmm.

So recently, um, we threatened South Wales Police who'd adopted a definition, adopted the official government definition of anti-Muslim hostility and operationalized it.

So they'd said to their police officers, "If you encounter somebody, um, making an illegitimate criticism of Islam," and they left it to the individual officers to decide what was legitimate, what was an illegitimate criticism of Islam.

If they decided that it was illegitimate, they should record it as a non-crime hate incident.

Non-crime hate incidents haven't quite gone completely yet.

They're still hanging around like a bad smell.

Um, but for the time being, while they still exist, South Wales Police have been advised to record incidents of anti-Muslim hostility, illegitimate criticism of Islam as non-crime hate incidents, which can, as you know, show up on enhanced DBS checks, stop you getting a job as a teacher or a carer if you're required to do a- an enhanced DBS check.

Toby, uh, finally, why don't you give the Free Speech Union and anything else you're doing a plug, and your Twitter, and anything you want to plug?

[audience applauds] To- Toby, do you want to, uh, just spell out for us some of the speech consequences of formalizing, uh, a speech code such as this one?

Yes.

Well, the defenders of the government's plan to, uh, land on an official definition of Islamophobia/anti-Muslim hatred, give it the imprimatur of state approval, and then roll it out across public bodies, um, one thing when you say, "Well, won't that have a chilling effect on free speech? Won't it inhibit criticism of Islam? Won't it inhibit discussions of things like the grooming gangs?" They say, "No, no, this definition is non-statutory.

We aren't going to criminalize, we're not proposing to criminalize Islamophobia or anti-Muslim hatred.

This is a non-statutory definition." And in that way they think they can entirely diffuse the criticism that it will have a chilling effect on free speech.

It's also why, um, as, um, Nick just pointed out, the advice which the working group has now given to ministers, we understand, at, uh, the end of last week, um, the week before last, um, uh, has been given to ministers in secret It's not gonna l- not gonna be laid before Parliament.

MPs, peers won't have an opportunity to have their say, to vote on whether or not to adopt this definition.

[laughs]

So we'll c- come onto that question a, a little bit more, in a more detail later on, but what else is, uh, uh, is in the plans?

Well, um, Liz Kendall, who's the Secretary of State at the Department of Science, Innovation, and Technology said recently, uh, that she is considering a VPN ban.

So, um, one of the reasons the Australian ban on under 16s accessing social media hasn't been very effective, something like 60% of under 16s in Australia are still on all the social media channels you can imagine, is because of VPN use.

Um, so the government is considering apparently banning VPNs, which gets us into, I think, very dangerous territory, puts us in the same club as North Korea and Iran.

Mm

... because we haven't seen the regulations.

Um, but, um, I'd be very surprised if, um, prosecuting children was the way the government is gonna propose the enforcement of this ban.

More likely to be parents, more likely to be social media companies, uh, for not doing enough to, um, exclude children from their sites.

What are your thoughts?

Those are my thoughts too, Ian.

I think beneath the blokey Everton shirt-wearing exterior, there is the same head of compliance, finger-wagging, curtain-twitching, lanyard-wearing authoritarian.

So I don't think we're going to see any change in attitudes to free speech.

I doubt he'll even do a U-turn on the proposals to limit the right to trial by jury.

I mean, a lot of things that currently threaten free speech are in the pipeline.

So there are various consultations about further restrictions on social media, the regulations banning under-16s from social media, potentially banning access to VPNs.

Was there a tipping point here? Did this just happen? Did it develop a life of its own? What's behind it? What's the nearest you've ever got to being able to pinpoint where the trouble started?

And finally, Toby Young.

Nigel, me, and Desert Island Discs.

The big revelation in Lord Ashcroft's forthcoming biography of Nigel Farage is that he's been banned from Desert Island Discs.

According to Ashcroft's sources, an appearance by the Reform UK leader would make some BBC employees feel unsafe and might lead to other high-profile figures boycotting the long-running show.

I have come to expect nothing less from the BBC, Farage told the Mail on Sunday.

Their blatant bias has been obvious for years.

The BBC has categorically denied the story, and in fairness, its blatant bias doesn't extend to Question Time, which Farage has appeared on about 40 times in the past 26 years.

but everything working out all right, everything?

Maybe a little bit slower to get people in, get them through registration and whatnot, but we're figuring it out.

They're building a new wing out back, and so we've got the area where the wing's being built plus the lay-down area for construction, and so we've lost some parking, but we're figuring it out.

We're getting people in.

Just took a little bit of time this morning to get it all squared away, but it seems to be running back like a well-oiled machine, so we're happy with it.

we going to do that again? Are they going to be more configured kind of like this in the future, you think? Not

sure yet.

You know, I kind of want to see what the finished product looks like.

well and it is the one place where the entire industry shows up under one roof so i mean there's a lot that goes into that that that is definitely a project of passion what sets mats apart from all the other industry events in your opinion

Sure, just the size and scale.

It's the ability to accomplish so much in one day, in three days.

And we've heard this quote from attendees and exhibitors.

In three days, I accomplish more than I can.

In three months or six months, making calls, trying to make connections, going through social media, trying to, you know, like you're saying, build my brand or build those connections that I need to be successful and for my business to grow.

Come to our show and you'll see, you can connect with all the people behind the products and services you see every day.

What do you do to protect that?

He really has become the pin-up boy for those that believe in free speech.

Yeah, I mean, he's been incredibly courageous in standing up on this particular issue.

And he's paid a huge price, as he said in his testimony.

His marriage broke up.

He's lost his career as a comedy writer, reduced to becoming a humble scribe.

So he's paid a huge price for setting out what most people, I think, would just regard as common sense about the differences between men and women and how difficult it is if you are born one or the other to switch gender.

He makes the point that he suffered for speaking out on this issue, not because he's broken the law.

There's a worry here, isn't there, that as America leads the tech world, that the European Union and now us, because of our closeness to it under Keir Starmer, get left behind the rest of the world?

Do you think that this will end well? It seems extraordinary that the Labour Party is going for the throat of Elon Musk.

Well, there was an old phrase on Fleet Street, Martin, which is, don't pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel.

And that was always a good rule of thumb for politicians, particularly prime ministers.

Don't pick a fight with a newspaper proprietor because they buy ink by the barrel.

And Elon Musk is the digital equivalent of someone who buys ink by the barrel.

And when the government had picked fights with him before, it hasn't ended well.

But try to unpick Liz Kendall's statement in the House of Commons this afternoon.

Donald Trump's got more ink than anybody on the planet to go for punitive measurements against our government.

But first, before we get to Sakhir Starmer, what he said today, tell us about his astonishing case.

Yeah, we were absolutely amazed when we first heard about it, when our member contacted us to tell us that, you know, an officer from Thames Valley Police had turned up at her house when she was undergoing cancer treatment to say that the police had received a complaint about a Facebook post.

He was pretty clear, I think, that it wasn't unlawful, but nonetheless, he was there to extract an apology from her.

And she was like, well, if it's not against the law...

You know, not only do I not have to apologise, but what are you doing here? As you saw in the clip, I mean, it is absolutely unbelievable.

It's as though the police are now school prefects whose job it is to ask people to apologise, to defuse online spats, except it's more sinister than that because the policeman said to her, if you don't apologise, I'm afraid you'll have to come with me to the station for a chat.

I mean, it's like a kind of comic, but at the same time, deeply sinister.

Is that, though, stooping to a council culture mindset that the Conservatives shouldn't be going down that route?

Uh, we defend free speech because of our Constitution." But you look at things like Jimmy Kimmel, but there's also other incidents, and you think, "Well, they're being total hypocrites."

hypocrites."Well, one important difference is that, um, America has the First Amendment, um, and that does protect American citizens from state overreach.

So, for instance, Donald Trump has said that he wants people to, who burn the American flag to go to prison for a year.

Um, but there have been a number of First Amendment test cases, uh, in which any attempt to criminalize flag burning has been ruled unconstitutional, a breach of the First Amendment.

Um, so it may be that Trump's personal support for free speech is no greater than Kier Starmer's, although I think that's probably wrong.

I think he probably is a bigger believer in free speech than our own Prime Minister.

But it matters less in America who the Commander in Chief is because they have the First Amendment to protect them.

(laughs)

Was today the day when the world woke up to this horror show?

Well, it feels that way, Martin.

You know, there's been a drip, drip, drip of these scandalous free speech cases.

And the Free Speech Union's been involved in defending quite a few of them.

And Elon Musk has been drawing attention to it.

J.D. Vance raised it at the White House with Sakhir Starmer.

He, of course, dismissed it, poo-pooed it.

Do you have any faith? the Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper, will listen to all this and actually do something about it.