How can there be an employers' union? Surely unions are for workers.

It's, uh, it's employers' association.

I mean, the All-Pakistan Textile Mills Association, the Pakistan Readymade Garments Manufacturers.

They are organized.

And Pakistan is a country where textile ministry, they have a ministry and it's controlled by the employers.

And one of the employers usually is the textile minister of Pakistan.

So when the textile minister is an employer, how could, can you imagine that that ministry will allow the unions or, uh, in, in the textile and garment factories, and that ministry will not influence the labor ministries as well in the provinces? I mean, that's impossible.

W- what keeps you, what gives you joy in the work enough to keep going? And I use that word on purpose 'cause I feel like Clean Clothes Campaign is quite a joyful thing.

[laughs] Okay, I'm gonna ask Khalid to kick us off with, uh, his thoughts.

Well, thank you very much.

Um, I've been engaged in this for, since I suppose 9/11, uh, when it first started.

That was my first year that I entered parliament, uh, and I saw the way things were going.

Uh, even before that, in the late '80s, I was going to my regular MPs, talking about the issues of what people like Hizb ut-Tahrir, HT, were doing and how we needed to curb what they were doing.

Basically, what they were doing essentially was turning young people away from their own families and parents by telling them, "If you're a, a Sunni from South Asia, that you are a kuffar, you're following the Hindu, uh, traditions rather than Muslim traditions that you're supposed to be, and you're in debt to cultural, uh, Islam rather than actually understanding Islam." Sufism's totally banned as far as they're concerned, and this continued trends, uh, to, uh, Muslim Brotherhood as well.

As far as Sufism's concerned, that's not, uh, or the way you should be, which is totally about understanding the- The, the vitals of Islam, which is about, uh, peace and oneness with God and one God, and understanding that what you contribute is, should be far more than what you take from society, and that, that's the key thing as far as I was concerned.

[applause]

system.Well, that sounds as if there's no way through it.

Well, somebody's gotta give, yes, of course.

At the moment, if it stays like this, there is no way through it.

Uh, and I think really what we need to do i- is we need to get people, uh, coming in from senior government level.

We need to get officials coming in and resolving this.

Uh, Birmingham City Council, I think some of the officials, uh, haven't, uh...

I mean, they're the people behind the scenes who do all of the work and sometimes not always get it quite as right as it should be.

So, if I was her, I'd say, "Right, I'm coming up to Birmingham, I'm gonna stay in Birmingham until this is sorted out and knock a few heads together." That's surely what needs to happen.