What does it mean to be in diaspora? How does one naturalize to place? Because I think that without that, there's a level at which I, as the descendant of enslaved people and peacemaking settlers who came in after everybody else in the mainline did the dirty work of clearing the land, that conversation about being naturalized to place is very, very different for me than it is for somebody who is Jewish, who has been morally formed and taught to pray for a land that they have never lived in I don't know what that does to a person, but what I see in the political landscape is that for a lot of people, it's done some pretty powerful work

I mean, I, I, I think in some part I hear what you're saying and longing for, and I appre- appreciate the gesture, Jesse, that you made to Masala and, and the incredible work of the Munayyer family and, and the power that is in a particular kind of biblical reconciliation model that really gets down at the very granular level of people's lives and narratives and the way that they've been shaped.

At the same time, I, I can't help thinking of folks within Judaism who give a different narrative of having been, you know, a product of the propaganda machine.

Um, you know, we get those testimonies in, in Israelism and in, in some of the, the writings that are coming out right now.

And, and so I think that we can't lose a hold on the truth, the role of truth.

I know everyone's gonna contest the truth, uh, but I, I am gonna hold to some historical facts on the ground that have happened that have to be reckoned with, and I don't know how we can get anywhere if that piece is not centralized in all of our discussions, and I think that's what can be missing very quickly, and what Palestinians are rightly very quickly to show us is no one, uh, at least in, uh, where I sit in my institution, really wants to wrestle with the facts on the ground of what happened leading up to from Doctrine of Discovery and Manifest Destiny all the way to the creation of the state of Israel post-World War II, and everything that came after with German and Western, Protestant, Presbyterian, Reformed theologians, uh, not wrestling with that whatsoever, but instead using theology and God's providence to justify what had happened.

Period, end of story.

And, and what we must never do, he says, is to see through the suffering