When did you first come to this?

Um, I don't know.

I honestly...

It's funny because I feel like for some books I have such specific memories of when I first picked it up, but this one feels like it's just always been with me.

It must have been in primary school.

Um, and I also am not entirely sure whether it was me or my brother, Tristan, who read it first, but it was definitely one of those series that bonded us, um, 'cause I think it does have that kind of crossover appeal for both, um, like boys and girls as young kids.

Um, but yeah, so I just, I honestly, I don't actually remember, which does frustrate me a little bit, but then I'm also like, it probably proves how special it is in that it just kind of feels like it's always, it's one of those series that just feels like home.

[laughs]

But you want it to feel gritty.

No, it definitely did.

And I have to say, like listening to the audio was another reason why maybe I preferred reading the physical copy in this particular series, because, yeah, it is quite gruesome.

The same as how like sometimes reading a very explicit scene can, you know, while you're listening to audio can be an interesting experience.

This was on the other end of the spectrum.

Speaking of pain and pleasure, having someone read, especially that scene where because Saf obviously has to go while she's undercover with the Blood Moon.

She does also some quite gruesome things.

Well, I

But then when they link the science and they explain it to you in a way that almost seems logical, you can think, oh, yeah.

But it could it could and it's familiar themes, right? Like, I think that's one thing that's maybe somehow how I would differentiate between dystopian and fantasy is often like anything that is in the dystopian realm is often revolution oppression.

There's sort of always this kind of tension going on between um class whether it's um even here it's to do with their abilities like society is um like divided in some way and it's to do with like power and i know that fantasy obviously does deal with that as well but it's often on like kind of a bigger spectrum or in a way that's um maybe a bit more like political countries or royals Elements come into it where I feel like dystopian kind of drills down to more your base power structures and it's more like authoritarian figures and that kind of thing.

So that's often a tipping point for me too.

Throw

me out, please.

I dare you.

Which is a kind of like different tension.

And truly, he has to go through it to become good.

He really does, and I think it's also because he is a completely different character from the start of the series to the end.

Like, he truly is a villain who goes through a proper redemption arc.

Like, it's not just someone who has those slightly morally gray qualities, but you're still rooting for them.

Like, he really is the main antagonist early on.

Um, thinking of that, actually, I do have an answer.

Um, mine would actually be Zoya Nazyalensky from Shadow and Bone/um, Six of Crows and Rule of Wolves, or King of Scars is the first book.

Um, a bit of a, I suppose, like infamous fantasy book thing is that sometimes you get a bit of a second book slump, which we don't necessarily [laughs] have to like specifically talk about that's when that's happened to us, but how do you think writers can try and avoid this issue? Where sometimes it feels a little bit like it's bridging to another book, and is it about how much conflict we have in there? Is it about how much world? How do you think really good series have avoided having second book slump or second book syndrome?