That was, like, something they were not expecting, correct?

Yes.

You know why? Because we were working on it for a long time.

We couldn't get him in the right spot.

And one day when we were in the basement, me, Frankie DiCicco, John Gotti... and another guy or two, and Frankie and Chico said, Sammy, I have a meeting, one of my guys will reach, Paul's gonna want a meeting in Sparks Steakhouse at 5.30 at night, and this, that, and the other thing, and I'm gonna be there, and there'll be some guys there, Jimmy Brown, Danny Marino, and a few guys.

So I said, that's it? And John Gotti turned around and looked at me, he says, what do you mean, that's it? I said, that's the spot.

We know the restaurant.

Now you both are very open about not liking each other?

So out of the 19 murders that you admitted to, was there one specific one that really sticks with you? Let me

answer that.

Yes.

I grew up with a guy, Louie Molito.

We were the best of friends from kids.

Um, We went hunting, fishing.

We were always together.

What do you have to say about that? Guys like that that talk.

You were, you were in it when those movies hit.

Yeah.

Yeah, and it, it, you know, it showed the family orientation, how we are with family, the weddings.

Our fam- my family had weddings like that, and people would get up and sing, and it was fun.

And, uh, you know, uh, who was it? Sonny is, with one of the bridesmaids in a, in a, in a room upstairs.

I mean, that's typical of us.

That was really typical of us, all that stuff that happened in that.

So what do you wanna say about that?

You were, you were in it when those movies hit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it, it, you know, it showed the family orientation, how we are with family, the weddings.

Our fam- my family had weddings like that, and people would get up and sing, and it was fun and, uh, you know, uh, who was it? Sonny is, with one of the bridesmaids in a, in a, in a room upstairs.

I mean, that's typical of us.

That was really typical of us, all that stuff that happened in that.

So what do you wanna say about that?

You don't think you defend it more than he does?

No, no.

I defend it maybe more than any...

I don't know, I don't know.

May- maybe.

I look at him as a changed man and doing the right thing.

I like him.

Yes.

They were essentially a form of a government in-

Yeah.

Let's say it would really cost $1,000 a month to take, uh, the carding from a pharmacy, which is a little expensive because you gotta worry about medicines and stuff like that.

They would make it, uh, 30% more, 40% more, 50% more, and just keep it for themselves.

It was like the biggest tax deduction they ever got.

All of a sudden, $1,200 bill is now $700.

(laughs) And, uh, and then the, the better companies came in and that, they kind of really straightened that out.

He, you?

You wouldn't have believed it?

I wouldn't.

I wouldn't think that it'd be possible, because it's so hard to get so many multiple families, let alone fucking industries.

Would the media confer with big tech, uh, with the Democratic Party, with this, with Hollywood? Could you get all those people on board? I would think not.

T- Would it happen, do I think now? I think it happens.

You know why I believe it too, Pat? When OTB came into New York, when they started, when the State of New York took over the betting parlors for the racetrack, I said, "This is the start of it." They've finally seen...

Okay, it- it was almost like Prohibition.

Why didn't we think of this?

R- uh, Kuklinski.

Kuklinski.

I didn't, I had nothing to do with this fucking murder and, uh, I'm pinched.

The state of New Jersey comes to me and they said, "Listen, Sammy, it's a cold case, killing of a cop.

He's 23 years old.

We just wanna solve it.

He's telling me you did it with him.

Were you, in that moment, conflicted whether you were gonna tell him or whether you were gonna kill him, like your decision hadn't been made?

I do.

I said, "Oh my God," to myself.

I didn't say it to him.

I said, "Okay." But when we left, I talked with Shorty.

"For real? This guy wants his ear, bro?" You know, I'm a shooter, I'm not a fucking ghoul.

I'm not gonna take this guy's ear off, and all this bull.

But there was guys who did not only killings.

It's got many different meanings, but what did omerta mean to you?

(instrumental music plays) Why did you agree to want to do this sit down?

So I didn't wanna get into this thing but it was about Cosa Nostra.

I'm a straight out gangster.

Michael, I believe, is a straight out racketeer.

There's two parts of Cosa Nostra, those are the two parts that everybody understands.

It's not what you see in the movie all the time.

There's a lot of background stuff.

Sam-

Mm.

And, uh, a lot of this was consensual and that's what really, uh, really blew it out of the water for the defense.

It, it sounded like a win.

When, you know, you do something violent...

Listen, uh, that you had a female lawyer talking a little while ago and she says, "It's about race, it's about women, it's about the..." It's nothing to do with race or women.

There was Black, there was white, there was everything.

But, but the point is that when you're having consensual sex, it's a different ballgame.

And do you think maybe, uh, uh, Sammy, that- that Cassie Ventura, as Yung Joc is suggesting, she may have seen the way it was all going and thought, "I better get in here and protect myself, and if I accuse him and get immunity, I can't then get caught up in any wider charging"?