Who knows?

Yeah, it feels like it's interesting if you compare stuff in the Argentoverse, you've got like Penebraeus.

It feels like it's in a sort of a real world.

And it was supposed to be, according to Argento, Tenebrae was set in a world where the Nazis won World War II, and this is Italy in that time period.

But it's not very clear.

There's no discussion of any of the politics, but that's supposed to be the backdrop.

And that's just why it feels a little bit weird.

And, you know, when people if somebody gets offended at something, whether it's in a book, in a video game, a song, a film, are you more offended by that than you are by something happening in real life?

Yeah, there were lots of, like, bad things and sexist things in 90s culture, but part of me thinks that my sexual development was probably eased along by the fact that Jarvis Cocker was around when I was young and you can get a sort of more realistic view picture of sex from pulp lyrics than you can from a lot of other media yeah

there's such a weird i was i was thinking about it watching this i took some notes on this i tried to articulate what it is about the teen sex comedy genre that feels so wrong today and it's It's something about, and it's a peculiarly American thing.

I don't think you see it from European films, even things that are sort of pitched at the same level.

In America, there was this sort of idea of misogyny, sleaze, voyeurism, all seem to be wrapped up and presented as eroticism and something desirable, which don't get me wrong.

I love a sleazy movie.

I think sleazy is very desirable in films quite often, but it's different in these.

It was like, it was less conscious of itself.

yeah yeah

What would have happened, do you think, if Massawi had told the FBI about the plot when he was arrested?

That was the key to us seeking the death penalty in the jury trial penalty phase of Massawi's case, which was that he affirmatively lied when he was arrested and allowed the plot to go forward.

And Massawi actually pled guilty to the entire indictment in April 2005 and signed the state facts.

And he admitted that he knew the operation was out there.

He admitted that the operation involved taking over planes, big short-bladed knives.

and flying them into buildings to kill Americans and some other stuff.

He admitted getting money from operative via Western Union wire transfer.

How was it decided which district he would be tried in?

I was going to ask, yeah, what was Nick Cave's presence in your life when you were growing up?

Yeah, no, he was very...

So I went through the whole... whole process of like you know being a kid and hearing you know the mainstream chart type music and then and then the usual thing you get into your teen years and you get into music and you might start dipping a bit into more interesting sort of stuff and that was sort of at the When I was in high school in the late 80s, early 90s, that was just on the cusp of that sort of...

There was like an indie music boom, wasn't there, as well as an indie movie boom later on in the 90s.

And I think the musical one hit a little bit earlier, but...

And it was sort of ushered in by grunge coming in and being a huge thing that converted everyone over and suddenly independent or alternative stuff was like completely mainstream.

But I remember in the sort of late 80s, early 90s, he was not a well-known guy.

You desire to believe that no one who produces good art could be a bad person, really, doesn't it?

But she's clearly been coasting on that [laughs] 'cause she's not very smart.

These three characters we're talking about, I've been thinking about this a lot because reading some of the critical reception at the time and some of the more critical reviews that had issues with...

I think this is where people stumbled, and I think it was assumed that it was bad writing because let's face it, this plan is terrible all the way down for her and for Jack.

Well, it is for Jack even, uh, to the point where you wonder why he agrees to do it for $10,000 'cause owing it to loan sharks I'm not sure really makes it worthwhile.

I always like to give the filmmakers some sort of benefit of the doubt, at least see if I can find some way for that to make sense.

It does become quite interesting 'cause as you say, Vince, the Michael Madsen character, he is in a way, until a certain scene later on, he is more sympathetic than her.

He's more sensible.

It's, it's a romantic idea that I'm, I'm not sure how easy it was then, but certainly easier then than now to kinda disappear, uh, and, and start over with a little bit of cash in your pocket.

And, and even though he, he brings up Brazil, which for me is very Kafkaesque, this whole idea of these forces outside of yourselves that are manipulating yourself and are manipulating you, and you have no idea who these people are, what they're doing, but you are basically just a cog in a wheel and being spun around by somebody else's power.

It was interesting that Proyas said, "Yeah, it's a bit like Kafka, but not as much as you might think.

I think it's more like an episode of The Twilight Zone." I get where, I get where he's coming from.

I think there is a lot of Kafka in it.

There's a hell of a lot of Kafka in it.

But I think where he's coming from is, in this case, there is the appearance of that sort of...

It's not s- it's not technically surrealism Kafka, is it? But it's, it is, like, a surreal story.

So that just adds another layer.

And Rob, how about yourself?

I saw it for the first time only about, I think only about a year ago.

I don't know when it was that Umbrella released their Blu-ray, but as soon as I saw it advertised on the Vincennes site and saw it was an Alex Proyas film I'd never heard of, I picked it up.

I'm quite a big Alex Proyas fan.

Some would say to a fault.

I defend some of his more indefensible films.

So yeah, I was fascinated by it and I knew it was going to be something... a bit different to his usual fare because I thought if he'd made some other type of action film before The Crow that would be a bigger cult hit at this point given how well he did later on and yeah it was pretty much about as different from The Crow and iRobot as it's possible to be apart from having those beautiful visuals it's just a gorgeous looking film I It's a film that I liked when I first saw it, and it has, I think, grown in my estimation over the last week or so.

Yeah.