So turning to our experts, let's start with Professor Samuelson, if you'd like to start us off.

Well, thank you for having me here.

It's great to learn this story and intrude upon the work of lawyers.

Now, John Adams, of course, is famous for his defense of the British soldier's officer in the Boston Massacre.

He's also famous more than anyone else.

He said, a republic is a government of laws, not of men.

He said over and over again.

But I think it's incredibly destructive to the legal profession to say we're really going to go after people to say, please, we want to ensure the other side doesn't have to fight with one arm time behind their back.

I don't even know how I don't know that to me, this idea that you wouldn't celebrate being in a college that was devoted to abolition and et cetera, et cetera, because you want to pretend that white people have always been irredeemably racist and, I mean, that's what's happening there, right? That's my understanding.

I actually have a hypothesis.

This gets us a little off topic, but I think it gets back to it, actually.

You think about this 1619 project.

Think about Nicoletta Jones, right? Her background, mixed race, parents of two races, and she's in the modern world, post-64, well past 64, does very well for herself.

What is Black identity after, so far after 1964, where it used to be you were forced to be a separate group? because you had no choice.

Your identity was grounded in that, your personhood, your separate church, all that.

But still, the idea that you would, for a nanosecond, consider this is ridiculous.

I don't even know how I don't know that to me, this idea that you wouldn't celebrate being in a college that was devoted to abolition and et cetera, et cetera, because you want to pretend that white people have always been irredeemably racist and, I mean, that's what's happening there, right? That's my understanding.

I actually have a hypothesis.

This gets us a little off topic, but I think it gets back to it, actually.

You think about this 1619 project.

Think about Nicoletta Jones, right? Her background, mixed race, parents of two races, and she's in the modern world, post-64, well past 64, does very well for herself.

What is Black identity after, so far after 1964, where it used to be you were forced to be a separate group? because you had no choice.

Your identity was grounded in that, your personhood, your separate church, all that.

But still, the idea that you would, for a nanosecond, consider this is ridiculous.

you

think about in the Northwest Ordinance and the land ordinance of 85, 84 and 85.

I think the way to think about it is in light of founding, they are self-consciously trying to found a republic.

Right.

Remember, in what we sometimes take as a throwaway line in his discussion of constitutionality, the Bank of the United States, Hamilton says, well, if it's against the Constitution or immoral or contrary to the essential ends of political society, those things, what are the ends of political society or this kind of political society? They are very much on their mind.

And that comes down to the land.

What does a Republican distribution of land look like? What does Republican land law look like? And part of the negotiations that brought the Union together, of course, was the creation of all this Western lands.

I was wondering if you had any thoughts on either Gouverneur Morris's position on things or the framer's language in the property clause and how it came together from your understanding of the convention.

So the May 15th resolution, Dr. Samuelson, what exactly was the May 15th resolution? Why does it matter historically?

Well, what's happened is partly some of the opponents of independence were briefly outside of Congress.

So they got a resolution through a preamble through the resolution.

So what do we do about our governments now that we actually don't have any of the officers appointed by the King? And they're saying, you should, where no adequate government exists, appoint your own government.

It says, let it be recommended to the respective assemblies and conventions of the United Colonies, where no government sufficient to the exigencies of their affairs have been hitherto established, to adopt such government as shall, in the opinion of the representatives of the people, best conduce to the happiness and safety of their constituents, particular and America in general.

That is, they're telling them, If the government is not up to it, you guys have to go create your own governments.

In other words, this is functionally independent.

Is this the moment that leads us directly to the drafting of the Declaration of Independence?

So the May 15th resolution, Dr. Samuelson, what exactly was the May 15th resolution? Why does it matter historically?

Well, what's happened is partly some of the opponents of independence were briefly outside of Congress.

So they got a resolution through a preamble through the resolution.

So what do we do about our governments now that we functionally don't have any of the officers appointed by the King? And they're saying, you should, where no adequate government exists, appoint your own government.

It says, let it be recommended to the respective assemblies and conventions of the United Colonies, where no government sufficient to the exigencies of their affairs have been hitherto established, to adopt such government as shall, in the opinion of the representatives of the people, best conduce to the happiness and safety of their constituents, particular and America in general.

That is, they're telling them, If the government is not up to it, you guys have to go create your own governments.

In other words, this is functionally independent.

Is this the moment that leads us directly to the drafting of the Declaration of Independence?

The next logical question as the colonies continue to move forward is, are we really ready to declare independence outright? So who was Richard Henry Lee? Why was he the one who introduced this resolution?

Well, Lee was a member of the Lee family of Virginia, leading family of the colony.

And he came down from Virginia, right, in Philadelphia, with instructions, finally, to declare independence.

And the legend was that these colonies are and often ought to be free and independent states.

Introduced that June 6th, 7th of 76.

And so Lee, doing as a high-ranking Virginian, is very important.

And Virginia leading the charge is important to signalize that it's not just the radicals in New England who want this.

Is this the moment that leads us directly to the drafting of the Declaration of Independence?

What's happening, say, from the beginning of 1776 up until around April or so where our discussion takes us today?

Well, just to go back a little before, remember when the Second Congress met, they sent ...

The people wanting reconciliation sent the Olive Branch Petition to the king.

It arrived around roughly the same time the king said, "Nope, I'm not interested.

You guys are out of my protection." And there's a struggle in Congress in the last part of '75 about what do we do about that, including in December people were coming to John Adams.

"What we do if we have bills are not from the king? Just say from the colony of blah, blah, blah," he said, but they had to think about that.

And in late December of '76, the king said basically American trade and American, or the colonial ships is forfeit to the king, and so the king is gradually pushing them and pushing them, and that's the context in which Paine's Common Sense takes place.

Mm-hmm.

Where are Abigail Adams and John Adams when this famous letter exchange happens?

John's in Congress.

He's the leading advocate of independence.

He's probably the first man in Congress on I don't know how many committees and in charge of most of them.

But incredibly busy.

And Abigail Capace, he doesn't write enough.

But, you know, he shows up against the letter.

How should we, well, I guess, tell our listeners how he responds and then how should we read his tone?

Before we do that, Dr. Samuelson, tell us a little bit perhaps, set the scene, what's happening, say, from the beginning of 1776 up until around April or so, where our discussion takes us today?

Well, just to go back a little before, remember when the second Congress met, they sent, uh ... people wanting reconciliation, sent the Olive Branch Petition to the king.

It arrived around roughly the same time the king said, "Nope, I'm not interested.

You guys are out of my protection." And there's a struggle in Congress in the last part of '75 about what do we do about that, including in December, people were coming to Giam's, "What we do if we have bills are not from the king, just say from the colony of blah, blah, blah?" He said, "But they had to think about that." And in late December of '76, the king said basically American trade and American, or the colonial ships is forfeit to the king.

And so the king is gradually pushing them and pushing them, and that's the context in which Paine's Common Sense takes place.

There is a turn.

All along the colonists have been saying, "Well, we want the good patriot king to protect us from Parliament." And what's happening now, they realize, they're starting to realize the king is part of the problem.

Mm-hmm

So lay this out a little bit, because what made Parliament think that they could just throw tax after tax after tax against the colonists over here?

Well, the real issue, interestingly, is Parliament became an empire without realizing it.

They were busy doing other things.

And all of a sudden, the colonies grew up.

They were very valuable.

And they never thought about what the relationship was between the colonies and Britain.

They kind of took it for granted.

and then rejected they did with um well in a vociferous nature because that sort of led us to the the boston tea party the boston tea party and those taxes in particular the tax on tea the stamp act all of that stuff you sort of lay that out and why was that suddenly the final straw