So you think the kingpins will not remain untouched?

Well, that's what the bill aims to see, but, uh, you know, a bill on its own, it, it won't solve the matter.

You know, the implementation is what matters.

But, uh, the way it's, it's put out is that we, we target the whole chain because, um, if you look at it, if you...

We, we've seen arrest of 60, 70, you know, illegal miners, Zama Zamas have been arrested, then the following week they are back, different people, different people underground.

Um, sometimes we might have one, two individual a bit higher up the chain, which are defined as kingpins, uh, which, which, you know, c- can be, uh, you know, there's some ways to, to, to, to see whether they are, but...

And, and, you know, one kingpin goes, the next one will take over.

Uh, my biggest concern about the Fed is that they lose credibility with especially the long end of the Treasury curve, and that is a m- that can have a lot of different ramifications on economic growth than just raising interest rates 25 basis points.

What do you think?

I think it, it doesn't solve, solve the problem, right? We, we can have the army, um, it-- because it costs resources, it costs money, right? And we've seen that currently the defense force is going through a funding, uh, challenge, right? I think, was it yesterday or two days ago when, uh, Musi Maimane came out, and, uh, in one of the interviews, he said that the president has finally signed, um, some funding that the appropriation committee made available.

But I would think this is-- this enforcement method lies with specifically the SAPS.

It's not only about enforcing, it's about gathering intelligence, right? Um, I would say, you know, you, you can enforce the law.

You can go, you can arrest people, but you need the intelligence to be able to trace, um, the value chain.

I call it the value chain, you know, from the illegal miners to the one they sell the gold to, then who gets the-- where the gold gets laundered, and then they get transported to various places, and they even leave the shore.

So you, you need broader, um, mechanisms than just, you know, enforcement.

How much is illegal mining costing now in comparison to when you wrote the article?

Yes.

And it was typically that, you know, the arrests were mostly of the foot soldiers rather than the kingpins.

But it seems now that the Justice Department has come back and tried to close the loophole, right? And like you say, you know, does it target, you know, the big guys or just the poor zamazama's? For that, I would say on paper, it does look good.

It targets the entire value chain, including those who assist.

It means on paper it can reach the financiers.

It can reach the big bosses, the kingpins, as we like to call them.

But the challenge is we've had this problem for over a decade since I wrote that article.

Surely that's leaving some trace.

[upbeat music] President Cyril Ramaphosa is going through arguably the worst time of his reign.

With me is independent governance expert, Richard Chelen.

Welcome, Richard.

Uh, thank you for having me, Chris.

It's a pleasure to be here.

President Ramaphosa's nephew by marriage has now forfeited permanently 326 million rands worth of assets linked to the looting of Tembisa Hospital, but he is still free.

What powers do parliamentary committees actually have? Do they have teeth?

Well, you went straight to the point.

Richard, are South Africa's laws and regulations not strict enough?

Well, as, uh, we always say, whenever it comes to such, you know, any type of organized crime, the law is there.

You know, the law is there.

It's a matter of enforcing it, right? And very often you will find that there is sometimes a lack of understanding among law enforcement official themselves onto how do we apply these laws.

You know, the regulation will be there.

We have the South African Health Products Regulatory Authority, SAHPRA, right? They've got all these policy strategies.

They're reworking one currently.

Richard, are South Africa's laws and regulations not strict enough?

Well, as, uh, we always say, whenever it comes to such, you know, any type of organized crime, the law is there.

You know, the law is there.

It's a matter of enforcing it, right? And very often you will find that there is sometimes a lack of understanding among law enforcement official themselves onto how do we apply these laws.

You know, the regulation will be there.

We have the South African Health Products Regulatory Authority, SAHPRA, right? They've got all these policy strategies.

They're reworking one currently.

Richard, from your side, what recommendation, recommendations would you like to see implemented urgently?

Uh, so [laughs] thank you, Richard.

No, thanks, thanks Willem, thanks Chris.

Uh, I would say, you know, um, it's, it's a bit difficult to kind of s- uh, specifically target, you know.

Whenever there's a market there will, will be, you know, uh, criminal syndicates organ- in it.

But, um, the one thing we've seen is, you know, anti-diabetic kind of medications, uh, lifestyle drugs.

I think that's quite big because that's where everybody is.

Now everybody wants to lose weight without, you know, going to the gym or running around, or running or exercising, right? So, and, and that's has created a, a market for that.

Uh, I don't know what you think, uh, Richard.