the machine,

yeah.

Yeah, because what does that mean? It means that we are good people, that it's not us, that we've been hijacked, that we've been turned around, that we've been subverted, but it's not us.

We mean well and we do well.

And given the opportunity to take our country back, and there's a whole host of – racist baggage here, okay? Our country that was taken from us in 1977 when Likud won its first election.

So we're talking nearly 50 years ago.

But we got to take our country back.

I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.

It's not like everyone is, you know, an it's a Ben Giver or a smoke Rick, but it seems like there is support for the war.

You're right.

It is complicated.

And I think it's complicated for outside observers because so many basic yet disparate elements of collective Israeli psyche come into play here.

I'll start by what you said.

Yes, there is support for the war.

I mean, broadly speaking, a majority, I would even say a large majority of Israeli Jews support the war or don't see any other option but the war.

What do you think are the causes of it? I hope that's an okay question to ask.

But the general point is everything's changing right now on an hourly basis.

Well, again, the change appears to be robustly dramatic, very exciting, laden with potential and possibilities.

But the truth is that not much will change ideologically and politically.

There are very technical political calculations being made now, mostly about senior politicians who are used to having a seat in the Knesset who may be afraid that their seat is going the way of the Dodo.

But again, the truth is that this is a drama that is for a very selective audience, and that audience includes people who are career politicians or people who meddle with issues that have to do with career politics.

The general public looks on this, and I doubt very much that anybody will come away from today and change their mind because the list that was closed included this person or that person.

What do you think are his prospects for victory?

well uh having conducted very unscientific research from the people who surround me uh i think that eisenkot and here i'm disagreeing with mitchell just a little i think that eisenkot stands a reasonable chance of being the head of the largest party and i think it's a question of brands indeed it's true that eisenkot has not come out and said, I'm going to be leader.

Ori, where does that impunity come from?

Oh, that's, uh, six- the $64,000 question.

Uh, and, uh, any attempt to try to answer it would f- would, would, would be a, a failure.

Uh, it comes from many, many years of, uh, influence peddling and, uh, psych ops by, uh, all Israeli governments trying to force the idea that, uh, the West is in Israel's debt.

And, uh, it comes from a collective racism, uh, and, uh, anti- Palestinianism which is, I think, uh, a variant of, uh, anti-Islamism, uh, and, uh, colonialism in general, and that I think is supported by Western countries because Israel is singing the swan song of all of those principles that were hallowed principles in the West and are now, uh, very much compromised and very much criticized.

Uh, and, uh, it also comes from, uh, again, the sense, or perhaps this is, uh, another way of saying what I've already said.

It comes from the sense of defending the bastion of, um, Western society-

But Ori, is the word settler, um, just another way of whitewashing actually what's going on in the West Bank, and this is actually just armed militias?

Gaza.

So Israelis don't talk about Gaza.

You've got campaign stuff galore.

but nobody talking about Gaza.

Now, if you want to accept the Israeli terms of what election politics means, then everything is, it's an interesting election because for the first time, and I've said this on Borderlines previously, I've been, I don't know if 100% confident, but fairly confident that Netanyahu has his chance to win.

As days go by, I feel like that chance is somewhat decreasing.

Oh.

Yes, because he's very pro-Israel.

Do you see any possibility of peace between these neighbors? Because there's still, what, 11 million Palestinians and how many, eight, nine million Israelis?

Peace is a problematic word after what has happened to the Gaza Strip.

You don't have to agree about calling it a genocide to realize that a healthy part of The Palestinian political presence has been completely decimated by Israeli activities.

I don't know how you have peace at the end of something that is not a war.

So I don't know if we need to be looking at peace.

And as for what you say about the Israeli right wing, again, the right wing's dream is to become the default option.

It's hardly ever to take by force or to be seen as an interloper or as an usurper.

Is that what you're saying?

What's the current political landscape in Israel? And as Netanyahu faces this growing friction with Trump and Israel's most powerful military ally, of course, the United States, can you talk about the pressure he's facing within his own Likud party and where he stands? Is this shifting the Israeli population's

To the best of my understanding, the answer would be a resounding no. It's not shifting Israel's population.

It's actually, I think this is an interesting bit of the conundrum that you described, it's actually making Netanyahu and his policies seem even more inevitable.

Because when his rivals criticize him, regardless whether they do it from the left or from the right, the only criticism that they have is, you weren't strong enough, right? You didn't do enough to secure Israel's future.

You didn't do enough to calm Israelis in the north, which means create a strip of land that is completely empty of Lebanese, not just of Hezbollah.

And when Israeli politicians are saying this, what they're actually saying is that Netanyahu's basic assumption, only war and hopefully forever war makes Israel safe.

That assumption is correct.

Can you talk about Israel's treatment of Lebanon and Gaza?

What's the current political landscape in Israel? And as Netanyahu faces this growing friction with Trump and Israel's most powerful military ally, of course, the United States, can you talk about the pressure he's facing within his own Likud party and where he stands? Is this shifting the Israeli population's

To the best of my understanding, the answer would be a resounding no. It's not shifting Israel's population.

It's actually, I think this is an interesting bit of the conundrum that you described, it's actually making Netanyahu and his policies seem even more inevitable.

Because when his rivals criticize him, regardless whether they do it from the left or from the right, the only criticism that they have is, you weren't strong enough, right? You didn't do enough to secure Israel's future.

You didn't do enough to calm Israelis in the north, which means create a strip of land that is completely empty of Lebanese, not just of Hezbollah.

And when Israeli politicians are saying this, what they're actually saying is that Netanyahu's basic assumption, only war and hopefully forever war makes Israel safe.

That assumption is correct.

Can you talk about Israel's treatment of Lebanon and Gaza?

What's the current political landscape in Israel? And as Netanyahu faces this growing friction with Trump and Israel's most powerful military ally, of course, the United States, can you talk about the pressure he's facing within his own Likud party and where he stands? Is this shifting the Israeli population's

To the best of my understanding, the answer would be a resounding no. It's not shifting Israel's population.

It's actually, I think this is an interesting bit of the conundrum that you described, it's actually making Netanyahu and his policies seem even more inevitable.

Because when his rivals criticize him, regardless whether they do it from the left or from the right, the only criticism that they have is, you weren't strong enough.

You didn't do enough to secure Israel's future.

You didn't do enough to calm Israelis in the north, which means create a strip of land that is completely empty of Lebanese, not just of Hezbollah.

And when Israeli politicians are saying this, what they're actually saying is that Netanyahu's basic assumption, only war, and hopefully forever war, makes Israel safe, that assumption is correct.

Can you talk about Israel's treatment of Lebanon and Gaza?

What's the current political landscape in Israel? Um, and as Netanyahu faces this growing friction with Trump, um, and Israel's most powerful military ally, um, of course, the United States, can you talk about the pressure he's facing within his own Likud party, um, and where he stands? Is this shifting the Israeli population?

Uh, to the best of my understanding, the answer would be a resounding no. It's not shifting Israel's population.

It's actually, and I think this is an interesting bit of the conundrum that you described, it's actually making Netanyahu and his policies seem even more inevitable.

Because when his rivals criticize him, regardless whether they do it from the left or from the right, the only criticism that they have is, "You weren't strong enough.

You didn't do enough to secure Israel's future.

You didn't do enough to calm, uh, Israelis in the north," which means create, uh, a, a strip of land that is completely empty of Lebanese, not just of Hezbollah.

And when Israeli politicians are saying this, what they're actually saying is that Netanyahu's basic assumption, only war and, uh, hopefully forever war, makes Israel safe.

Can you talk about Israel's treatment of Lebanon and Gaza?

Mm.

And winning Eurovision meant, uh, at that stage, uh, normalcy, but also a distinct Europeanness, which as far as Israelis were concerned wasUh, a stamp of propriety.

As time grew, Israel was never shy about using, uh, Eurovision for pinkwashing and, uh, promoting it aggressively, uh, through these, uh, semi-legal, let's call them, chains of human and non-human influencers.

It doesn't surprise me in the least because this is a primal desire among Israelis.

We want to be accepted.

We want to be embraced.

We really don't understand why the world doesn't see that we're only doing what sensible people are doing-

Mm.

Mm.

And winning Eurovision meant, uh, at that stage, uh, normalcy, but also a distinct Europeaness, which as far as Israelis were, were concerned was, uh, a stamp of propriety.

As time grew, Israel was never shy about using, uh, Eurovision for pinkwashing and, uh, promoting it aggressively, uh, through these, uh, semi-legal, let's call them, chains of human and non-human influencers.

It doesn't surprise me in the least, because this is a primal desire among Israelis.

We want to be accepted.

We want to be embraced.

We really don't understand why the world doesn't see that we're only doing what sensible people are doing-

Hmm.

Um, if we find ourselves once again where we've destroyed a lot, but Iran still wants to enrich, then we'll find ourselves back here, uh, probably in another war in a few years.

In that sense, both historically and with regard to the present conflict, the Iranians have made such a commitment a number of times already, including in the negotiations they, that they were, uh, having with the Americans in Switzerland when this thing began.

And it-- I think it should behoove us all to remember that there's one nuclear country in the Middle East, and that's Israel.

And the fact that Israel and the United States, but mostly Israel, I'll, I'll suggest that Israel has taken a leading role on this becoming an irresolvable war.

The fact that Israel, who has done this, who has led its fighters, but more than anything, a large portion of the United States military into a war with Iran that nobody knows how one might win, I think that really takes a lot of gall.

Uh, Israel is constantly raising the stakes on the gall here.Uh-huh.

And, uh, that's the, you know, as professional as I can get when describing it

But so let's just presume for a moment that we, p- particularly from Prime Minister Netanyahu and his government, that we take at face value what their beliefs are about the Iranian threats, okay? With that in mind and the goals that Lazar pointed out earlier, ending the nuclear program, ending the ballistic missile threat, uh, disempowering Iranian-armed proxies, and creating a less radical, uh, the soil for a less radical, uh, government in Iran, is there any other scenario than a years-long military engagement that Israel would have to continue to achieve these goals?

Can you talk about the response on the ground right now in Israel to the Israeli US attack on Iran and then the response by Iran?

Well, uh, as far as the Israeli general population goes, there is a broad embrace of this attack.

In fact, uh, the consensus which so far, uh, during the protests against the Netanyahu government, uh, has been shushed and actively repressed is now surfacing with full strength.

That is the alliance between the Israeli liberals and, uh, the Israeli right, the settlers, uh, the religious elements in the government.

They all seem to agree, uh, broadly and deeply that this, uh, war is inevitable, that it must be carried out right now, uh, and that it has abs...

And Israel has absolutely no choice.

And of course, that this war will only end with a real toppling of the regime in Tehran, a campaign that can and should last as long as it takes, which is something our prime minister has said repeatedly over, uh, the last few days.

Uh, can you talk about the, uh, uh, negotiations that were happening in Geneva, um, around, uh, Iran's, uh, nuclear program, this happening in the midst of them as they were planning to continue this week? This is something that you've looked at continually.

Can you talk about the response on the ground right now in Israel to the Israeli US attack on Iran and then the response by Iran?

Well, uh, as far as the Israeli general population goes, there is a broad embrace of this attack.

In fact, uh, the consensus which so far, uh, during the protests against the Netanyahu government, uh, has been shushed and actively repressed is now surfacing with full strength.

That is the alliance between the Israeli liberals and, uh, the Israeli right, the settlers, uh, the religious elements in the government.

They all seem to agree, uh, broadly and deeply that this, uh, war is inevitable, that it must be carried out right now, uh, and that it has abs...

And Israel has absolutely no choice.

And of course, that this war will only end with a real toppling of the regime in Tehran, a campaign that can and should last as long as it takes, which is something our prime minister has said repeatedly over, uh, the last few days.

Uh, can you talk about the, uh, uh, negotiations that were happening in Geneva, um, around, uh, Iran's, uh, nuclear program, this happening in the midst of them as they were planning to continue this week? This is something that you've looked at continually.

Can you talk about the response on the ground right now in Israel to the Israeli US attack on Iran and then the response by Iran?

Well, uh, as far as the Israeli general population goes, there is a broad embrace of this attack.

In fact, uh, the consensus which so far, uh, during the protests against the Netanyahu government, uh, has been shushed and actively repressed is now surfacing with full strength.

That is the alliance between the Israeli liberals and, uh, the Israeli right, the settlers, uh, the religious elements in the government.

They all seem to agree, uh, broadly and deeply that this, uh, war is inevitable, that it must be carried out right now, uh, and that it has abs...

And Israel has absolutely no choice.

And of course, that this war will only end with a real toppling of the regime in Tehran, a campaign that can and should last as long as it takes, which is something our prime minister has said repeatedly over, uh, the last few days.

Uh, can you talk about the, uh, uh, negotiations that were happening in Geneva, um, around, uh, Iran's, uh, nuclear program, this happening in the midst of them as they were planning to continue this week? This is something that you've looked at continually.

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz writes, "This is the biggest military flyover operation in Israeli Air Force history." Can you talk about what's happening on the ground in Israel? And were you shocked by this attack, the joint U.S.-Israeli attack on Iran, in the midst of these negotiations that were taking place that were being mediated by Oman, Ori?

Thank you, Amy.

I, I was indeed surprised by the attack.

I thought that, uh, it was in the best interest of both the United States and the Islamic Republic to reach an agreement quickly.

Um, what's going on on the ground in Israel? Israelis are-- they're a schizophrenic combination of resigned and, uh, jubilant.

Uh, we can do both, apparently, ever since Israel began its, uh, genocidal efforts in Gaza.

Uh, and so Israelis have become resigned to the notion of war with Iran.

You also have, uh, Iron Dome, and don't you have a US aircraft carrier that's right there also targeting if there are missiles and drones?

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz writes, "This is the biggest military flyover operation in Israeli Air Force history." Can you talk about what's happening on the ground in Israel? And were you shocked by this attack, the joint U.S.-Israeli attack on Iran, in the midst of these negotiations that were taking place that were being mediated by Oman, Ori?

Thank you, Amy.

I, I was indeed surprised by the attack.

I thought that, uh, it was in the best interest of both the United States and the Islamic Republic to reach an agreement quickly.

Um, what's going on on the ground in Israel? Israelis are-- they're a schizophrenic combination of resigned and, uh, jubilant.

Uh, we can do both, apparently, ever since Israel began its, uh, genocidal efforts in Gaza.

Uh, and so Israelis have become resigned to the notion of war with Iran.

You also have, uh, Iron Dome, and don't you have a US aircraft carrier that's right there also targeting if there are missiles and drones?

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz writes, "This is the biggest military flyover operation in Israeli Air Force history." Can you talk about what's happening on the ground in Israel? And were you shocked by this attack, the joint U.S.-Israeli attack on Iran, in the midst of these negotiations that were taking place that were being mediated by Oman, Ori?

Thank you, Amy.

I, I was indeed surprised by the attack.

I thought that, uh, it was in the best interest of both the United States and the Islamic Republic to reach an agreement quickly.

Um, what's going on on the ground in Israel? Israelis are...

They're a schizophrenic combination of resigned and, uh, jubilant.

Uh, we can do both, apparently, ever since Israel began its, uh, genocidal efforts in Gaza.

You also have, uh, Iron Dome, and don't you have a US aircraft carrier that's right there also targeting if there are missiles and drones?

What about Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, uh, not supporting the ceasefire but not pulling out of the government, which would bring it down?

Ben-Gvir and Smotrich are less powerful than they may appear from the outside.

They're both sectorial leaders, and there's a real difference between them.

Smotrich is an ideologue.

He has an ideological movement behind him, settlerism, what- it's called Religious Zionism, which is also the name of his party.

Ben-Gvir is an old-fashioned populist here to simply torch the place and cause as much mayhem and death and destruction as he can.

Uh, both would be lost without their membership in Netanyahu's government.

And, Ori, if you could respond to what our guests earlier were saying, uh, some understandable skepticism about whether Israel will abide by the agreement and, if so, to what extent?

Uri, what is that reason?

The reason, I think, is Netanyahu's desperate attempt, last chance attempt, if you will, to draw the world's attention away from Gaza.

Real reason Israel attacked Iran is that Israel has reached the end of its rope and has exhausted all of its options in Gaza.

Israel cannot make any sort of progress in Gaza.

It keeps on killing Palestinians regularly, which is the only thing that is at its disposal.

And I think Netanyahu felt the global sentiment shifting on Gaza.

I think he saw the potential reversal of his fortunes with regard to what Israel was doing in the Gaza Strip.

And, Ori, what about the impact of this Netanyahu decision on the popular protest movement against him within Israel? As a result of these attacks now, basically, the population is forced to shelter in place.