Right.

I mean, there are so many layers to this story, and we'll get into, uh, the other aspect that is interesting to me in a, in a second.

But Phil, you said it's kinda getting ugly.

I agree with you.

I still ...

I wanna ask all you guys, I wanna keep ...

I keep coming back to this.

It's gonna get infected

Mm-hmm

... uh, the, the stories that were coming out, uh, his per- his personality, his, uh, just him as a person and a player was under attack for a while.

And like you said, no one really had his back.

So I, I, I would, I would be hurt, you know? I, I mean, I think that'd be a normal feeling, and he's definitely someone that downplays it publicly but, you know, he, he has a very strong list of these things he wants to atone for-

Mm-hmm.

He did literally everything he could.

He had, you know, as good of a season, I think, as Jaylen Brown can have.

Sixth in the MVP voting, sixth in All-NBA voting.

But I have confidence in Vrabel's ability to keep the game close.

Yeah, I do too.

Now look, the schedule I know is the soft spot of every Patriots fan.

Uh, every Patriots fan can't stand it, hates to hear it, but it's true.

It was a- a, an easy schedule.

But I always point out there were some things to be learned from that schedule that were positive.

One, you have the ability to beat up on bad teams.

... which I think is the right thing to do.

Bush league.

Come on, dude.

Like, so first of all, you're saying run to Contreras.

So you should've just caught yourself there.

You, you should catch yourself there and be like, "Okay.

All right.

That's enough." But then to go into the clubhouse and have all these histrionics, no.

Michael Holly?

Is that a reasonable take to you?

It's a reasonable take, Colin, except for what he got in return, for what Brad Stevens got in return.

So I, I would think if that's his perspective, I think it's a little impulsive, especially since Brown and Tatum played together for 19 games last season.

19 games, regular season and postseason.

We know Tatum didn't play in game seven.

There were some games in the regular season when Tatum came back and Brown didn't play.

So 19 games of these guys together, neither one is 30 years old yet.

Yes.

I'm gonna make the move today." Is that a reasonable take to you?

It's a reasonable take, Colin, except for what he got in return, for what Brad Stevens got in return.

So I, I would think if that's his perspective, I think it's a little impulsive, especially since Brown and Tatum played together for 19 games last season.

19 games, regular season and postseason.

We know Tatum didn't play in game seven.

There were some games in the regular season when Tatum came back and Brown didn't play.

So 19 games of these guys together.

Yes.

Two stats and one lie.

Oh, I'm so excited.

It's the Toucher and Hardy program, 98.5 The Sports Hub.

It's a big day for the station.

The guys are at the Hoosier Caddie Classic.

It's at Brook Meadow Country Club.

The whole station is there in Canton.

That's how you neutralize him.

Michael Holley, would you give up a first-rounder for A.J. Brown?

Yes, because that's what the Patriots are gonna do, uh, to get A.J. Brown.

This is what the Patriots, I believe, have already done.

Now, this is interesting to me, uh, Mazz and Murray, uh, because w- as we know, the NFL sold off the NFL Network, and ESPN is controlling the NFL Network.

But the NFL has, like, 10% or 20% of it, whatever it is.

I think it's 10%.

So now you've got an insider, you've got an NFL Network guy, their insider, Ian Rapoport.

You might be right

... what are they doing?

Okay, look, look.

I think new people in, in the workplace, I think it's good to have new energy.

It's, it's always good, you know, to have somebody new coming in.

Too many new people suck.

Too many new people who don't know what they're doing and don't, uh, understand how these things work, having them all work together is a disaster.

So that's what's happening with the Red Sox right now.

Yep.

All right.

Yeah, he was the same in high school.

He was the same.

Yeah.

Now listen, he, uh, i- i- it wasn't a- as quite, it wasn't as perfected in high school, but clearly he was the smartest guy on his high school team, great athlete.

At that time, he was a tight end and a defensive end.

A- one of the best athletes I've ever covered.

But you think there's a difference there in that he has sort of recognized that I can't control everything.

I think it was 21 out of 22.

Okay, 21 out of 22.

All right, so that's how you keep the job, or you do what they tell you to do.

So they certainly didn't go on a 12-game winning streak.

Now we're in a case where Chad Tracy's gonna do whatever they tell him to do, and all the stuff that he trots out there is stuff that I'm sure Craig Breslow and his soldiers said to Alex Cora, "Why don't you do this? Why don't you do that? Why don't you do that?" And Cora's like, "Uh, you know, I'll try some of it, but I'm not doing that.

I'm not.

You know, I, I, I've won a World Series.

So why can they do it and the Red Sox can't?

... how do you, how do you be the best?

What's best, what's best for ...

It, it's really this balancing act of what's be- what do you, what do you think is best for you as a player and what's best for the team? So Jaylen Brown feeling, uh, uh, clearly feels that the best thing for him is to handle the ball and have the offense run through him.

But that's always what Tatum has done.

I, what's best for the team, I don't know.

I really don't know because I've seen some, I've seen the, the positives of both of those scenarios and I've seen the negatives.

I saw Jaylen kind of reverted a little bit, turning the ball over.

[laughs]

And I have trust in Brad Stevens to navigate.

Okay, yeah.

But there's trust.

Definitely there's trust in, in the process, and I think most Celtics fans look at it and say he's done a really good job as president of basketball operations.

But just, like, if, if, if you're in a marriage, yeah, you could say, "Yeah, I trust you," but when you c- start making some decisions, I need to be looped in.

[laughs] I need to know what you're thinking, so, just to, just so I can be in position to push back.

So I don't wanna say, "I trust Brad Stevens will figure it out, Bill Chism will figure it out, and I'm just gonna sit here and wait till they figure it out." I think we all should just jump in there and say, "Hey, this is what the Celtics need." So I think it's, it's pretty clear-What they need-

Yeah.

In the room the next day.

Yeah, show up the next day.

But that, athletes are not governed by those rules because sometimes they initiate the rip jobs, and they don't expect you to be there.

And so this kind of, uh, back and forth, this tension that athletes and media members used to work out all the time no longer exists.

I wish we could have both.

I wish the athletes continue to have their p- their forum.

It expands the content base for all of us.

They did

Well,

I know Wick very well and have known him for, oh, goodness, it's about 20 years now, a little bit over 20 years.

And so his story is similar to a lot of stories in professional sports.

He is his dad.

I think his dad even...

His dad is in his 90s, and he still may be on the faculty of Stanford Business School, where Wick also went, got his MBA from Stanford, and then spent a lot of time on the West Coast during the tech boom.

And so his dad always was involved in professional sports and wanted a sports team, and Wick did as well.

Why Seattle?

Are people mad, people disappointed, or accepting of this?

Wait, wait, wait, okay.

Now, you've been to Boston many times.

People in Boston stay mad.

That's default mode in Boston.

You know it.

Yeah, people are pissed, and rightfully so.

What's the vibe in Boston around the rest of the Red Sox season now?

Can't have it all?

Yeah, but, you know, you think about the...

They really have had a clown show for various reasons, right? at the head coaching spot since, what, 2022? I mean, Bill started it.

Now, it's not equal, but Bill, what the hell, dude? You're really gonna make Matt Patricia your offensive coordinator? You're doing that? You're really making Joe Judge your wide receiver's coach, your quarterback's coach? So you think about Bill on the field with the coordinator thing.

Then you think about Bill with Jordan.

We got the ring camera.

This is your head coach and ring camera looking for his car because he's about to get towed.

That's all I got.

... that this Rodgers thing is a done deal in Pittsburgh.

Well, I would say...

Well, I don't, I don't know.

I, I would just say this, Mike.

It might be tough, 'cause I agree with you.

At this, at this stage, you know, Aaron Rodgers versus Kirk Cousins, at least it's a toss-up.

Believe-- [chuckles] Shockingly, it's a toss-up only because Aaron Rodgers doesn't like getting hit.

I know what's coming, and I love it.

Even back

then, Michael had walk-around guys.

He was really something.

He's wrong.

He's wrong.

Now, as I said, it's probably 85% true.

There's a guy...

I'm teaching

Right

..."they gotta give me the ball." But they have never said...

Tatum has never said about Brown, "The guy's shooting too much." Brown has never said about Tatum, "He's shooting too much." It has never been an issue in a decade, so why would it be an issue now? So I thought, "I'm gonna stand in on that one." And then, two, just my belief in Tatum as a player.

I know it's a major injury.

He's coming back, and he's got a long way to go, but I just think he's so talented.

And you put him on a team that's already well-positioned in the Eastern Conference, I'd, I, I was willing to take my chances and say, "Yeah, they, they'll be the best team in the East," which they are.

Block.

And then he started...

Yeah

... it's, and he's going to...

It, it's gonna happen.

They did.

I, I...

Patriots fans hate when we bring up the schedule, but the schedule's a real thing.

It was a historically easy schedule.

Nothing is ever gonna change without accountability."

have plenty of times, things to talk about, all Pats.

Well, mostly, yeah, mostly Pats, which is, I mean, if you think about this time last year, Roach, this time last year, you're thinking about the Patriots, and you're hoping for a lot of fans to hear from, they were hoping they'd lose.

So December, whatever, you know, December, the equivalent of game 15 last year.

You were hoping they'd lose.

Yes.

Because they sucked.

And you wanted to get a top pick in the draft.

Get the hell out of

Chaim Bloom didn't put enough emphasis on the big league team, and that really, uh, in the, in the eyes of the public really set them back.

Well, but Tony, like, h- h- how many teams are able to do that? It sounds good.

"Hey, we're gonna rebuild and be competitive at the same time." Most of the teams that do it get lucky with it, because what they're really trying to do is just cut payroll.

So, when you see these teams that are rebuilding, but are still competitive, they're really low payroll teams.

It's the Minnesotas, it's Cleveland, um, it, it's, uh, Tampa seems to be in that loop for y- for years and years.

It's these teams in, in m- in mid-markets who have a bunch of young players.

The young players are ready earlier than the general managers think, and so now, in one year, go, "Wow, what an amazing story," that's their first year.

Yeah.

What is your, uh, prognosis for the 2025 Patriots?

All right, so I think, like, uh, uh, the caller D, I'm a coach myself and, you know, he called me, and, you know, you know, just like me, um, you know, we're both coaches.

(laughs) We see the game the same way.

D is like a lot of fans.

A lot of fans are excited because it's not a disaster from a coaching standpoint.

Now, I didn't think it would be a disaster last year.

I was surprised that Jerod Mayo really struggled media-wise, in terms of organization.

I know it's a pain in the ass, and you can pound in the off season a little bit, but you do have to dedicate yourself a little bit better and get your play... get yourself in really good shape if you want to play at the level you're capable of, because you have insane talent.

I think it has already, Mike.

Eddie, Eddie, you're on the money.

They, they do this all the time, and I, uh, sometimes I, I look at it...

I started off saying like a year ago, because they've been playing like this for a long time, just bad baseball, the Mavs.

So, you know, you gotta, you gotta put it on the manager, but I think it's bigger than the manager.

It is an organizational thing, but it's even bigger than the organization, and I know we'll talk about it, uh, eventually.

This Dan Shaughnessy column today, where he goes around talking to these Hall of Fame baseball players on the record in Cooperstown, and these guys are saying, "I don't like the way the game is played today.

Absolutely, Michael.