But to now see the reality of it, Gary, and what this has looked like through two games, Paul George, when right, is still a weapon.

Very much so.

He's an excellent defender.

Not the defender that he was in his heyday, but still a very good defender, a real ball hawk.

You saw that two-handed duck last night.

He still got some lift, right? The question is, and I'm sure this might have happened in Philly.

The question is, does he hit a wall? Like physically hit a wall? Is he going to be like, man, I need to miss three games.

And you know, if it truly was the, well, move over like the Eastern conference runs through Philly now, or if you find yourself looking at this group in any way differently after what we've seen through two games.

Gary, am I crazy?

No, you're not crazy.

I think what we have to understand as sports fans, and there's still a kid in all of us, right? And we don't like when our favorite athletes...

privately did not get along, right? Our favorite teammates for athletes.

When guys say, I never really liked the guy.

I played great with him.

I never really liked the guy.

And, you know, if it truly was the, well, move over like the Eastern conference runs through Philly now, or if you find yourself looking at this group in any way differently after what we've seen through two games.

Why is this year going to be different?

Well, if you look at a couple years ago, it obviously was a contract year.

Last year with the Clevers, he played 74 games.

So obviously he was playing for his money, and he got his money.

The $212 million deal from the Sixers that he's still being paid by the Celtics now.

So he says that for the first time in a while, he's not needing treatment before he gets on the floor.

that he feels healthy.

But if you had your choice of guys, Gary, and you had to pick between Gonzalez, Shireman, Pritchard, who's most likely going to make the biggest step forward this year in terms of contributing more than they already have?

I guess silver lining is he's going to be here.

Yeah, I mean, obviously they saw something different.

good enough to where they were convinced that he was going to be better than Milos Uzan or Tucker DeVries.

The guy that kind of impressed me about him was, let me see here, let me get his name right, Gabe McLaughlin.

Yeah.

I thought, you know, 13 boards.

He was two for seven from three.

wasn't familiar with them i was like

But how, if at all, do you see his, his role with this team changing now or going forward?

I see it as expanding.

Um, he, he- they're gonna need more from him now that, uh, Jaylen Brown is gone, and I just think he's gonna step his game up and become that player.

Now, can he be the best player on a championship team? Probably not.

He's a good complement, a good member, uh, of the supporting cast.

And I think he'll have a chance because- They're gonna need, and I've written about this before, you know, Tatum is your number one guy.

You're gonna need a, some number twos, and it's gonna be b- by committee, right? It's...

Uh, just your, your take on just guys that have kinda stood out for better or for worse.

Some of the things that you said, what do you think his head's at right now coming to Boston?

Well, I think he wants, I think that it was a couple of elements that happened in New York.

Like the Knicks were not going to be able to pay him.

The Knicks are not going, they're not doing the Celtics a couple of years ago.

They're not going into the second apron.

Okay.

So I think it was either the day of the parade or the day after their owner, James Owen said, like, we can't afford Mitchell.

How do you think Jason is going to be approaching this season, and will we see any of that approach visible in media day?

So you saw his offense begin to emerge because we really had no idea what he would be on that end.

No, that was a thing, Bobby.

I think the hope for...

Jordan is being that 3 and D guy, a guy who can stretch the floor and hit that corner three.

You know, your Royce O'Neal type, the type of player who can make a spark and make an impact defensively, but also if you leave him open, he can burn defenses by hitting those open shots.

And I think that that's the next step he has to take.

I thought he did take some baby steps in that third year.

interesting thing that they hadn't talked, right? I don't think he got asked about that today.

I have to think Gary.

Yeah.

I think that what this team has missed in the last couple of years is is exactly what Conley can bring.

Now, the question is, at 39, can he still bring it? A point guard who can get the ball to George and Tatum and guys in their spots, who can take some pressure off Derek White from playing the point all the time and can just knock down an occasional open jumper.

Like, because I don't think defenses are going to focus on guarding Mike Conley.

I remember a play last year, I want to say, when they went to Minnesota and Conley, fourth quarter, Conley was left open and knocked down.

This was in Minneapolis and knocked down a real critical three-pointer because the Celtics were trying to guard Ant-Man and all the other weapons and Randall and all the other weapons they had.

mainstay there in Minnesota.

He'll get a chance early, I have to think, Gary.

Yeah, I think that what this team has missed in the last couple of years is exactly what Conley can bring.

Now, the question is, at 39, can he still bring it? A point guard who can get the ball to George and Tatum and guys in their spots, who can take some pressure off Derek White from playing the point all the time and can just knock down an occasional open jumper.

Like, because I don't think defenses are going to focus on guarding Mike Conley.

I remember a play last year, I want to say, when they went to Minnesota and Conley, fourth quarter, Conley was left open and knocked down.

This was in Minneapolis and knocked down a real critical three-pointer because the Celtics were trying to guard Ant-Man and all the other weapons and Randall and all the other weapons they had.

And that was last year or two years ago, but it was like a key jumper that Conley hit.

He's going to be out there early and often, I'd have to imagine.

But I'm curious when it comes to the Eastern Conference hierarchy, where do you think the Cavs rank? Have the Cavs passed up the Boston Celtics in this hierarchy? Or are people overreacting to Boston's offseason because we're looking at a roster without seeing what Joe Mazzulla can really get out of it?

Yeah, I think it's interesting.

I have a Celtics third and East because one, I think, remember last year, they played most of the season without Tatum.

This year, they're kind of flipping Tatum, include Tatum, take out Jalen, but they're also inserting Paul George.

Obviously, that's the biggest question as to this season is... what's going to come of Paul George? What is he going to bring? How many games is he going to play? That's going to be a question.

Is he 100% healthy? We really haven't had a chance to talk to him since he was acquired, so we'll find out on media day.

But he's working out with Jason, I guess, organized some, as a lot of teams do, organized workouts in L.A., and a lot of guys showed up, and Paul was one of them, and they're starting to work out together.

and they need to be more mentally and physically tough? Or you think there's a significant improvement from Evan Mobley, Peyton Watson, Jalen Tyson that can help get them to where they want to go?

So when Balmer or the other organizations say, well, other people are doing it, is that who's out there doing it? Is it these group of investors who constitute one ownership group of a team? Do you think those are the teams that are out there doing more stuff like this? Because it seems like that's more in their world than it would be in Balmer's world.

Yeah, I don't know if it's just exclusively for, like, hedge funds.

I think with Ballmer, in this situation, he was trying to make a splash.

He wanted the Clippers.

The Clippers are the stepchild of the Lakers in L.A. They're just not.

They'll never be the Lakers, right? Never.

I don't care.

You mentioned mentioned they gave up shea gilgis alexander as part of that but when you go through everything they gave up they gave up first round picks in 2021 2022 2023 a swap in 2023 as well 2024 2025 first round swap now you lost first round picks in 26 29 30 31 32 and 33 with first round picks in being kind of the pieces that you move, it seems, to even pick up veterans, and let alone drafting players, where does this put the Clippers? Does this guarantee they'll be bad? And if so, when will they even have an opportunity to get any better? I

Yep.

Okay.

I was on a podcast when the trade broke and it was a shock because it just expanded this whole thing, man.

Like the whole, like my theory is that game seven loss, the Sixers game seven win on May 2nd was probably one of the bigger games in recent Celtics history.

If they win that game, okay, they have one of those shots goes down, Maxi doesn't hit one of those layups or whatever happens in that game seven and they play the Knicks and they lose in five, okay? I think they would have maybe won a game against New York with Tatum coming back and then they lose in the second round.

Tatum comes back this year.

This whole thing is probably different.

Um, you know, I guess just going off of it, like what kinda makes this guy tick? Like, what can Sixers fans expect, uh, over the next couple years with Jalen Brown?

Um, I think it's gonna be a step back for them this season as they try to figure all this out.

Yeah, Bobby, I don't think...

I mean, 56 wins I think is, is really optimistic if you're a Celtic fan, um, at this point.

Because, uh, as you said, the, Washington's better, right? Brooklyn has got Julius Randle and, and a, a bunch of young guys.

Like, they're gonna be...

All these bad teams are now, are gonna be playing really hard because of this.

If you guys haven't looked at the new lottery system, like, the seventh team has better chances to get the number one pick than the third team.

Where are they headed from here?

Has any clarity at all come into the Jaylen Brown situation, and are, are you learning anything that has given you some insight on, on to, any more insight into why this went down?

I...

No.

I mean, I think financially, obviously, was a element of it.

Analytics was a element of it.

And I think personality and maybe the end of the relationship, uh, was definitely part of it.

Um, I just think the Celtics appeared to be ready to move on.

What, what, what, what is holding things up right now?

Like, that's just not Ugo's game.

I think John Tonje's proving that he's kind of like that in-between of an NBA player and a, you know, G League player.

Like, he's too good for the G League, probably a touch below a NBA player now, and at age 25, you might be thinking that might his, be his peak.

Um, but I thought today he was not good.

Nobody was good today.

Maybe Tucker DeVries, uh, was okay, and, and Sinick had, you know, uh, his share of points, but he also had five turnovers.

But I, I think Tonje's a guy who, you know, is fighting for a two-way.

[laughs]

Uh, what'd you make of him being surprised about this? Uh, you know, thinking it's weird, uh, you know, just not totally being in the loop about what was going down, felt like, at least as he tells it.

I'm not sure Jayson wants to be in the loop.

I think he kind of said he lets Brad do the managerial things, and he plays ball.

And i- i- if, eh, whether you believe that or not, or whether you think he had a say in this, I think Jayson was genuinely surprised by the trade, and I don't think he was crazy about Jaylen being traded to a division rival, the team that just eliminated him.

But I also think he under- he understands this is a business, and that two $70 million players on the same roster is not gonna work out in today's NBA.

And that, hey, this is gonna have to probably end, and I don't think either guy was, knew...

Uh, both guys knew they weren't probably gonna retire h- with the Celtics.

A lot of hype around Payton right now.

Yep

... where you had all this whip and, and all this.

Now we got, you know, the things of how hard the ball's hit and all that stuff, and how many curve balls he throws compared to sliders.

It's the same thing in the NBA, that there are some organizations that are fueled by analytics, and Jaylen's analytics is not flattering in comparison to some other stars around the league.

So I think the question that Celtics asked themselves, and they answered, was after the elimination by the Sixers, was, "How can we change our roster to compete for championships?" And I guess the decision they came to is, we need to cha- trade Jaylen Brown, one, not because he's not a productive player, he's a very productive player, but because, one, analytically it's not flattering, and secondly, he's due a two-year, $141 million extension that we're not just not gonna pay because Jayson Tatum is up for the same extension the next year, and you're not gonna have two $70 million guys on your roster as both in their 30s.

So the Celtics made a decision, which I think if you really think about it is understandable, although you might not agree with it.

But the way they handled this trade, the way they dangled him out there, the way they dragged him for 10 days was unacceptable and embarrassing.

Right

Mm-hmm

... said it was his favorite season.

Everybody...

That really got blown up.

Um, that's something he had said to us throughout the year because the team e- exceeded expectations without Jayson Tatum.

He had gotten the chance to have a starring role, a bigger leadership role, a bigger responsibility, and the team flourished, and I think that's what pleased him.

I don't think losing in the first round was something that pleased him or being without Jayson Tatum.

[laughs] Where's LeBron James playing basketball next year, by your best estimation? Or, or is the super team for the, the olden state Warriors, uh, gonna make a, a good push here? Is he back home in Cleveland? What do, what do you think?

[laughs]

Um, he showed that he didn't have-- He wasn't a $50 million player.

He wasn't the, that guy that he was in Indiana in his early days with the Clippers.

So o- overall, the reaction in Boston is just, it's an overall...

People are kind of trying to compare this to, like, the worst trades in Boston sports history, going back to, uh, to Babe Ruth.

And they're trying to...

I mean, that's the thing.

[laughs]

Why did no other team say yes to this

deal? Wouldn't you cross that team off your list? Yes.

Yes.

And that's why this is fascinating.

If this was Portland.

Like six teams you probably wouldn't trade them to, right? Yeah.

Toronto, you wouldn't trade them to a team in your division.

Why was Jalen Brown not of more value to other teams in the league?

So why was the deal, you know, essentially Giannis for Jalen Brown, like under consideration by Milwaukee in the first place?

I think because you have absolutely now no star power in Milwaukee.

That's a market where, one, you're not going to get a lot of star players unless you draft them or you trade for them.

People aren't going to rush to sign with the Bucs.

A premium free agent.

So you now have a top, you know, you can debate where Jalen Brown is, but a top 10 player, you're replacing the top 3-4 player with a top 10-12 player, however you want to look at it.

And now you still have a name to kind of build on, even though Jalen's not a sizzling household name in the NBA like SGA or Luka or something like that.

But say Jalen Brown's here, what other moves can he make to improve this team?

Terms and more at applecard.com.

So, Washburn, do you think that Giannis is going to be a Celtic? I don't think he's going to be a Celtic.

What? Just from what I'm hearing, I think the Celtics are gauging what it would take to get Giannis to Boston and trying to figure out whether...

They want to move Jalen Brown.

And if there's rumors that Jalen has been moved and he hears that all summer, what kind of mentality will he have coming into next season, which is critical for this franchise? I do think Miami has the edge on this, but I do think Boston is kind of sniffing around and finding out.

Could you even acquire Giannis without sacrificing Jalen? That would be a big question.

They're not saying who wants Jalen.

No.

point of if you were going to do that deal, you would – say we want him here for this x length of time at least the near term of the deal once you get to the back end of it anything's possible in terms of moving it but that's why he would want it and that's why they would ultimately give it i think if that's where they're at

here's the thing too we have to understand that there are As much as there are teams that have the big money players and the teams that can sign free agents, and Boston over the last 10 years has become one of those teams that can bring in big money players through free agency.

There's a handful of teams that will never, ever be able to get a star player in his prime or even near the end of his prime.

The Washingtons, the Utahs, the Portlands.

That's why they traded for – Portland traded and paid Drew Holiday $37 million, a sum that people – hell – No one ever is not going to pay Drew Holiday $37 million.

He's going to be damn near $37.

Someone did.

motion team.

Go ahead

...

there are, as much as there are teams that have the g- big money players and the teams that can sign free agents, and Boston over the last 10 years has become one of those teams that can bring in big money players through free agency.

There's a handful of teams that will never, ever be able to get a star player in his prime or even near the end of his prime.

The Washingtons, the Utahs, the Portlands.

That's why they traded for, Portland traded and, and paid Jrue Holiday 37 million.

A, a sum that people said, "Hell, no one, whatever, is not gonna pay Jrue Holiday 37 million.

Simons.

Yeah.

Doesn't give a lot of information, very general.

Polite, but not one of those GMs that just pours his heart out.

In this situation, he was a little bit more revealing about his, uh, opinions of this roster.

Even though they had won 56 games, and they had earned the number 20 in Eastern Conference, he was not overall overwhelmed with their talent.

He knows that they have to get better in this off-season and do a mini kinda overhaul to get to that level of the New York Knicks now, who are kings of the East.

Um, and could be kings of the NBA in a few games, we'll see about that.

Right, right