How do we encounter the person of Christ? And so I just would like to hear a little bit about how did you, what's your story, how did you encounter the person of

Jesus Christ? Yes, the reason I wrote that book, Jesus, Our Refuge, is that my fear is that many of us treat Christianity like a philosophical system or a way of life, a sort of structure of morality, or perhaps a heritage, right? but it's first and foremost a person who we can encounter.

And so if we were to ask, say, Padre Pio, if we were around during the 60s, am I called to receive the stigmata like you? I don't know what he would have said.

Probably, I doubt it.

If you would have asked Catherine about interlocutions from the Father, she may have said something similar, and so on and so on with these extraordinary phenomena.

But if we were to ask any Christian saint today, Am I called to experience ongoing dynamic intimacy with the Holy Trinity? The answer is obviously yes.

And I think we need that today more than ever because things are very chaotic and there's a lot going on and many people are frightened and anxious and lonely and And I think there is a lie out there that says we have to figure life out.

Yeah,

And I think verbalizing those things is huge.

But then I guess the question is how do you get to that point where you ask a potentially offensive question? Because you want to be sensitive to where people are at.

Like if someone's exhausted, like if the wife is exhausted with the cares of the house and the children and she's just given birth, we can also make excuses for ourself, right? Women can make excuses for themselves.

Can I just finish? Women can make excuses for themselves where actually suck it up, princess.

Like you could actually do a hard, you could probably work harder than you're, currently working and then love your husband better than you are currently making excuses for.

That's true, it's true of men too.

But there are also times where it's like, you can imagine a situation where the woman is exhausted or the husband's exhausted and then where, how do we then ask things of each other Without it being insensitive.

And he gets the... you know paint and new knobs and like redo like that would be that is a prized possession and something beautiful now so like you have new furniture in your bedroom but it's not new your husband just lovingly took time and sanded down the old ugly stuff and

Yeah.

You know, in a way, that doesn't, um...

That part, I, I don't know, maybe it should bother me more than it does, but there's been corruption in the church for 2,000 years.

Um, uh, this, uh, maybe this is cliché, but, of course, it was only John, the Beloved, who first but ran away from Christ, right in the Garden, but then came back to the Cross, but the rest abandoned Him.

You know, and so, um, I don't know.

I, I think we're at a time where there's an- there's a lot of people who are very interested in Christianity and in Apostolic Christianity in particular, right? Whether that be Orthodoxy or Catholicism, I think.

My concern is that since humility rarely goes viral and since the internet rewards people who are bombastic and triumphalist, that the temptation will be for this new crop of converts to use the Christian faith to bludgeon their ideological opponents-

Id- is that an accurate description?

They don't remember.

Crazy.

It is funny, as you get older, you live long enough that you see these things hit culture and feel unstoppable, and then peter out.

You know? Like, so whatever is happening today, if you're young, you might think, "Oh, this is the answer to all of life's problems.

I'm gonna jump in," right?

Okay, you're up.

All right.

Will the end times, as described in the Bible, involve AI? So okay, we lock in first.

For people who don't know about Pints with Aquinas, what exactly are you gonna be talking about?

Thanks so much.

I've been- I'm thrilled to be here, first of all.

Pints with Aquinas has been going on for about 10 years now.

I thought I was gonna absorb you, but y'all absorbed me, and that's fine.

Um, and it's, it's terrific.

They're long-form discussions about faith, philosophy, and theology.

Well, what do you make of that, and do you see the possibility of a, of a broader spread, not just sort of a revitalization of the very religious core of each movement, but a, a broader spread back to a place where, where churchgoing is dominant, say?

Mm-hmm.

There's a desire to tap into, yeah, beautiful things, that beauty is objective.

Like, so Gregorian chant is objectively more beautiful than a rock band, and if you disagree with me, you're wrong.

And I think there's a recognition of that, and in our banal, modernist, uh, solipsistic society, there's a desire to kind of reunite with, with what we all collectively dismissed.

Um, something like that.

And I also just think there's a pragmatic reason to be a Christian, and that is you will be happier.

Uh, if, if you don't have compelling reasons to think that Christianity is true, and you don't have compelling reasons to think atheism is true, and if the arguments for each are, in your estimation, on par, then I think there's still a pragmatic reason to choose to believe Christianity.

Would you say that the pockets of Christianity in Australia are strong and devout for that reason? Or how would you describe that dynamic?

Now you read it.

All right, number two.

The Prophet Ezekiel was instructed by God to cook food over a fire fueled by something odd for symbolic reasons.

What was the fire fueled by? Oh my goodness.

It's not good.

What was...

Uh, my turn.

Okay, what was the first plague that befell Egypt in Exodus? Uh, I believe it was the turning of the Nile into blood.

That is definitely a reality, so.

Yeah.

Well, I'm really pumped to be here, first of all.

I'm just thrilled about everything.

And, uh, on Saturday, I sat down with Dr. Scott Hahn, who's a biblical scholar, convert from Presbyterianism, and we did, we recorded a beautiful Christmas episode for Daily Wire that comes out, uh, today on Daily Wire+, and then next week, we'll go out to the public.

And so we talked about Christ as the longer awaited Messiah, and even just this, like bizarre idea that Christians have, hey, like in, uh, First Corinthians Chapter One, Saint Paul talks about the scandal of the cross.

I mean, it's such a scandal that the Mohammedans reject it outright, that it's like...

(laughs)

Wh- what do you make of this from a Biblical perspective?

Yeah, well, I would agree with what you said earlier, that, uh, just because something is described in scripture, it doesn't mean that it is commended in scripture.

So I think it is the case, right, that we, we do see polygamy in the Old Testament.

But that is far from saying it is somehow celebrated as a good.

I think we could realize, uh, in a similar way to how, um, uh, adultery, uh, sorry, not adultery, um, uh, divorce was, was, uh, permitted in scripture.

Um, this was permitted, Christ says, because of the hardness of peoples' hearts.

Um, so this is the problem, I think, when you take the scriptures and you interpret it without the magisterium of the Church.

And, and ignoring either side of that equation is a mistake.

You actually have faith and I wanna- I wanna know what you feel about the current situation.

situation.Yeah, I think, uh, back in 2008 during the height craze of the new atheism, we were assured that as people gave up their primitive, knuckle-headed belief in God, that, uh, a golden age of reason would be ushered in.

And then you've got some sheiler named Caryl marrying a train station in San Diego, and more recently men can have periods, and I think we've sort of just woken up in the wreckage th- that these lies have brought about, and, uh, we don't wanna live in a completely meaningless universe.

And so if there is an argument that's, that's moderately convincing, it's better to go with that than to, to live a, a life in despair, which is what I think atheism gets you.

So maybe it was that the new atheists overplayed their hand.

They were very cool, uh, but there wasn't much in the way of argumentation on their side.

Yeah.

And, uh, so it was like a smoke bomb going off in culture, and people couldn't see straight.

You actually have faith, and I wanted to- I wanna know (laughs) what- what you feel about the current situation.

situation.Yeah, I think, uh, back in 2008 during the height craze of the new atheism, we were assured that as people gave up their primitive, knuckle-headed belief in God, that, uh, a golden age of reason would be ushered in.

And then you've got some sheiler named Caryl marrying a train station in San Diego, and more recently men can have periods, and I think we've sort of just woken up in the wreckage th- that these lies have brought about.

And, uh, we don't wanna live in a completely meaningless universe.

And so if there is an argument that's, that's moderately convincing, it's better to go with that than to, to live a, a life in despair, which is what I think atheism gets you.

So maybe it was that the new atheists overplayed their hand.

They were very cool, uh, but there wasn't much in the way of argumentation on their side.

Oh.

(laughs)

... reason I'm a Catholic is that I, I think, uh, I think Catholicism is true.

I think that God exists, uh, that Christ is the second person of the Blessed Trinity, the long-awaited Messiah.

I think He established a church and I think He gave that church authority, and that that church is the Catholic Church.

You know, we live in a day and age where we're constantly bombarded with the latest scandals, and that can be very demoralizing, and it makes sense, you know? And you think, "Well, how could this possibly be the true chur- true Church of Christ when we see scandals, when we see abuses, when we see cowardice?" Uh, but I was thinking this morning that that would also invalidate the true religion in the old covenant, you know? I mean, Rahab the prostitute, Moses the murderer, uh, Solomon has his heart turned towards Baal, um, by his, uh, foreign wives, uh, David the adulterer.

So, um, I think if you're looking for the true church, and by the true church, you mean the church of perfect people, then you won't find it.

And if you did and then joined it, it wouldn't because you, you're abysmal.

Oh.

You actually have faith, and I wanted, I wanna know (laughs) what- what you feel about the current situation.

situation.Yeah, I think, uh, back in 2008 during the height craze of the new atheism, we were assured that as people gave up their primitive, knuckle-headed belief in God, that, uh, a golden age of reason would be ushered in.

And then you've got some sheiler named Caryl marrying a train station in San Diego, and more recently, men can have periods.

And I think we've sort of just woken up in the wreckage th- that these lies have brought about, and, uh, we don't wanna live in a completely meaningless universe.

And so if there is an argument that's, that's moderately convincing, it's better to go with that than to, to live a, a life in despair, which is what I think atheism gets you.

So maybe it was that the new atheists overplayed their hand.

They were very cool, uh, but there wasn't much in the way of argumentation on their side.

Oh.

And, you know, maybe you can talk a little bit about why that's so important and, and how that, you know, the falling apart of that notion of embodiedness has really corrupted so many elements of our politics and thought.

It's a great point.

Yeah.

We are our bodies.

We don't have bodies, we are bodies.

We are a composite of both body and soul, both equally a part of who we are.

When I kiss my daughter good night, I really do that.

Yes, I mean, the attacks on the family would be an excellent ...

(laughs)

By the way, I'm gonna fail this.

I- I literally asked before we click record, "What is this on?" So I d- I haven't spent much time, I've, uh, yeah.

Here we go.

Go for it.

(laughs)

Oh man, my goodness.

(upbeat music) I mean, Michael Knowles, I mean he's not sure if, if Ben Shapiro is a heretic or not.