Does this look to you like a pattern or an incredible, horrible coincidence?

Yeah, great question.

On the surface, it does look like it could be part of a pattern.

And the pattern right now is based on primarily on the behavior, but also cause and manner of death.

So what they have to do in addition to that is they have to look at forensic science findings because those are the most secure ways, certain ways to link cases together.

So, for example, I've seen in the serial murder cases that I've worked as a FBI agent profiler, A serial killer will often, they make mistakes and they leave behind their own evidence.

It may be hairs and fibers or it could be their own blood.

I mean, what would be the motive?

Mary Ellen O'Toole spent her career at the FBI, including 15 years in the Bureau's famed profiling

unit.

I work specifically on profiling serial murder cases and assisting law enforcement all over the world in how to understand these offenders and how to make sense out of their crimes.

I think Joseph Paul Franklin will be very interesting to talk to because if you scrape away the racism, he is still a cold-blooded, predatory individual who was driving around the country shooting and killing people.

And so to say that that's the reason that he killed is very difficult for me to accept.

Interviews like this are extremely helpful.

Will they identify all the answers? No.

you very much.

Mary Ellen O'Toole spent her career at the FBI, including 15 years in the Bureau's famed profiling

unit.

I work specifically on profiling serial murder cases and assisting law enforcement all over the world in how to understand these offenders and how to make sense out of their crimes.

I think Joseph Paul Franklin will be very interesting to talk to because if you scrape away the racism, he is still a cold-blooded, predatory individual who was driving around the country shooting and killing people.

And so to say that that's the reason that he killed is very difficult for me to accept.

Interviews like this are extremely helpful.

Will they identify all the answers? No.

you very much.

Mary Ellen O'Toole spent her career at the FBI, including 15 years in the Bureau's famed profiling

unit.

I work specifically on profiling serial murder cases and assisting law enforcement all over the world in how to understand these offenders and how to make sense out of their crimes.

I think Joseph Paul Franklin will be very interesting to talk to because if you scrape away the racism, he is still a cold-blooded, predatory individual who was driving around the country shooting and killing people.

And so to say that that's the reason that he killed is very difficult for me to accept.

Interviews like this are extremely helpful.

Will they identify all the answers? No.

you very much.

You don't know what you are starting inside of yourself or someone else or your spouse.

Yeah, certainly can be, um, it certainly can be dangerous, and I'm, uh, m- my sense at this point is that Chris is not happy with his life, and he's not really blaming himself.

He's blaming Shan'ann.

He may be feeling very trapped, very backed up in, in the corner, may feel like he has no control.

So there are other, other feelings that he's, that are going on.

It's just not his inability to express himself.

So he's now engaged in this behavior where it, it's almost escalating to the point where he's rubbing it in her face.

Like, what good can come from this that can prevent this? I, I can't live without an answer.

about that from that vision?

Yeah, I've heard that on a number of cases over the years.

And a robbery gone wrong would suggest something that I have never seen in my career.

Not that that makes it impossible, but a robbery or a burglary is described as taking property that belongs to another person.

And most burglaries, at least those here in the United States, occur at a time when the burglar doesn't think somebody will be at home because what their intent is is to go in, take things of value, and then to leave.

But if you go into somebody's home at one or two o'clock in the morning, you're pretty guaranteed you're going to run into somebody.

And burglars don't want to do that.

From all you've learned as a former FBI profiler, what attributes would you be expecting in a perpetrator in a case like this?

Mary Ellen, based on what you know so far, do you think there's enough there for someone in the public to, to try to help solve this, or is more needed to try to spark that key tip?

Well, I absolutely think there's enough out there right now for someone to call in, to spark somebody's, um, i- interest and to say, "I'm not totally sure, but, um, there's just something about that, um, outfit.

There's something about that holster.

Um, I heard somebody say comments about kidnapping this woman a week before." There's definitely enough information out there for somebody to call in.

Mary Ellen, if this was indeed a kidnapping, and if the person who did it has not been communicating with the family or the FBI, I mean, what would that tell you about the profile and, and psychology of a criminal who would do something like this and then stay in the shadows, stay quiet?

I think there are several possible reasons for that, and, uh, one of them is he's dead.

Um, another possible reason is that he did not anticipate the reaction of, of the general public and of law enforcement, and that's not something that you can plan for.

If you've never done this before, you are, uh, probably really taken back by how much attention, and rightfully so, that this case has gotten.

Uh, how long could it take for a national retailer to, to find that information, and is that something that a perpetrator would be thinking about? Maybe disguise their, their tracks while they do that?

Um, it will take, it could take a while, uh, but I'm confident that they are giving it priority because this case has gotten so much attention, and they should give it a, um, a priority.

Um, I, it, it depends on whether or not the offender thought ahead that far to think, "What if they track my clothes back to Walmart and then they go, can go back and see the day that I bought it and then get the cameras?" Some people do think like that, and this is an offender that may have not been perfect at everything, but there certainly was evidence of, of pre-planning.

So they may have thought enough ahead to not buy everything on the same day or not use the same Walmart, and that will make it a lot more challenging for investigators to go back and attempt to track it.

But i- they will probably be successful if there's something there.

Why do you think so many, um, s- influencers, YouTubers, et cetera, people who don't necessarily have investigative experience, rushed to accuse members of the family?

I think one of the reasons that, that people do this, quite frankly, is, is when you see a case like this on, on television, oftentimes, it, it, it's portrayed as being a family member.

And I think if you don't have that kind of investigative background where you know that every time a case like this happens, whether it's a child, um, kidnapping or an adult, you eliminate the family first and foremost as, as people that have been around that person, uh, and then you move on.

I don't- Is- Are these two things consistent in your mind? And have you been thinking at all about a profile for this guy, who, who took her?

So that's a great question.

Um, I think it's possible it could be the same person.

The fact that he walked up there, and what was really striking to me, um, because it's hard to know, is this a really good writer? Is this someone who's really articulate when he puts pen to paper? But th- the comfort level that he seemed to show, at least in my opinion, um, he was very casual.

He didn't seem to be, um, nervous.

He just seemed to, um, to walk up and, and to be comfortable.

That knowing that within moments, he was going to get into the home and commit one of the most violent crimes we know of, which is kidnapping.

But what you say, who, who kidnaps an 84-year-old woman in the dead of night, and now you actually have the blessing of a picture of him doing part of the crime, what does that profile look like?

Mary Ellen, I mean, i- given the length of time, given, you know, the demand of money, the, the reach out to both local and TMZ, do you have a sense, uh, or, uh, do you have any kind of working hypothesis of a profile of this person?

Well, a little bit more than I, I did earlier today, but the one thing that's, that is really striking to me, um, and John and Jonathan, I think, um, hit on it as well, is: What's the purpose of today's communication? What was the reason for it? Because the reporter said there was no mention in that in terms of the note today, um, of deadlines or, um, information about, um, how to make this ransom, um, effected, um, messages to the family.

If that's true, what the heck was the purpose of this, of this letter? Was it to provide, um, leads for the police department? Was it to hurt the family? Um, was it to taunt the police? So if this is an imposter who wrote both notes but did not kidnap, um, um, Nancy, then why is he...

He's almost guaranteeing himself, um, years in, in federal prison for what he's doing without any f- financial benefit.

So that almost makes no sense at all.

Um, and why the third-party intermediary? Why send these, the notes to the media? Because they immediately turn it over to law enforcement anyway.

So there is a focus on, on the media here.... which may give us some background about what this person is obsessed with.

What, what does, what does that tell you about-

Does that suggest anything about whoever took her? And also, Harvey Levin saying it seemed like a rational actor, at least through the words used in a note.

Yeah, it certainly does to me, and I'll tell you, um, briefly what, what it means.

It, it, um, reinforces for me the suggestion that this was a well-planned-out attack.

And when you have a, a low-risk victim, uh, that is victimized in a low-risk environment, their own home, in a nice neighborhood with, with very little crime that's occurring in the neighborhood, and then you have an offender who's able to access that victim in the middle of the night, and possibly, uh, without breaking down a door or breaking a window, that tells me that, um, there's a good possibility the victim was specifically targeted.

But number two, it also suggests that the, that the planning had to, um, include some kind of recon before this crime occurred.

And that recon could be, um, going through the neighborhood and seeing what the dynamics of that neighborhood were at 1:00 in the morning.

It could also have included going into that home without her knowing about it ahead of time.

What's the purpose of that?

Well, they really want to get the public to go back on the day of the shooting and think about where they were in regards to that map and the locations on that map.

A lot of people will listen to the news reports and dismiss them, and that's just common.

So they want to get people to think about, could you possibly have crossed paths and not thought about it? And that's important because...

Now this person stands out to us.

But back on Saturday, if you were driving around, you probably looked at this individual and were thinking about your Christmas list.

I mean, he didn't draw that much attention.

How often is it that a suspect would change maybe the way they walk or do things, knowing that law enforcement would rely on video footage like this to try to track them down?

The bedroom was up ahead.

He brought the weapon with him.

He had a mask, he had gloves.

It also happens to be on an evening when the victim's husband is in a travel status.

This was purposeful.

Went inside somebody's home, took enormous risk.

So, that suggests to me more of a targeting than it does randomness.

According to O'Toole, serial offenders can sometimes channel their compulsion to kill into other crimes, like stalking or voyeurism.

I mean, obviously he just said his name I- in the he- the hearing, um, but in that text exchange with his, his partner's roommate, uh, what stood out to you?

Well, look, listening to his texts and reading them, I kept going back to the phrase that you just referenced, which was, "Hate cannot be negotiated out." It's a weird statement to make, and as I, as I read it and I went back over statements that I've reviewed over the years when I was still with the FBI, it's, it's...

The way it's stated almost seems like he's saying, "And I had no choice," because it could not be negotiated out.

So, um, I'm sure investigators are going to be looking at that and what does that say? That...

It's, it certainly suggests to me that he was feeling somewhat desperate to a- address the situation in an extremely inappropriate and lethal way, and I think that's consistent with his personality which is...

Seems to be almost devoid of any emotion, particularly for the victim.

He doesn't reference the victim, he doesn't talk about Charlie, he talks about his mom, he talks about his "old man" and how the father is gonna be upset with him.

Mm.