And I think there's some great insights on things you can do for your children as well, so let's get into the show with Mark.

I remember going to him in my 20s and complaining about my girlfriend, and [laughs] he said...

He asked what, what happened, and I told him, "Oh, you know, she was complaining about something." [laughs] And I ...

Listen, I've resolved h- what I am about to say [laughs] I would no longer say anymore, but I said, "If it's so bad, why are you with me? Like, just leave." And I told my dad this, and he was like, "What? No, no, no, no, no, no, Mark." And I remember exactly where I was sitting in my car when I was talking to him 'cause he said, "A relationship is a separate entity.

There is you, and there is her, and you need to care for that separate entity."

Now let's get back to the show.

I had, I had, like, tried to return jeans for money.

I had so much shame about it, and, you know, I was sitting in the back of the store, and they're [laughs] you know, the police are there, and they're like, gonna call my parents, and my dad comes up to pick me up.

Like, how can we be more open to our partner's truths, especially if they're

hard? That's the work, you know.

When I was in my 20s, I for sure had a harder time with other people's truths, especially if When I look back, a lot of that was that I was avoiding really truthfully hard conversations.

It's interesting in our development as relationally is that we learn relationally how to be in in romantic relationships from what we observe and what we see in media and what we watched in disney and things like that and and so you learn through your evolution how to be a good kid in your family how to minimize conflict how to be a part of your religion or your culture or whatever it is And then you realize, you wake up in your 20s or your 30s or whenever, it doesn't really matter when, and you start to think like, do I actually even like the things I'm choosing? Why am I living this life? For me, I woke up at around 27 and I thought, how did I get here? I was making these choices, but I didn't go travel in Europe because I was afraid.

I did a finance degree because I was told that was practical.

I had to start to differentiate between who I am and what I was taught.

That, of course, comes with a great amount of grief.

But

This has gotta be one of the most insane clownish periods of time in, in the world's history.

Yeah.

You know, there's a really fascinating thing that happened during COVID where kids, w- young teenage girls were being diagnosed...

This is verified, were being diagnosed with Tourette's.

And they, when doctors evaluated them, they didn't have traditional Tourette's.

Tourette's usually isn't just rapid onset.

They were also using a German word for French fries, which is, I think, pomme, which is also the Friends, French...

Mm-hmm.

Which one are you gonna choose? And that's kind of where we had to get to, I had to get to, to be able to step outside of that normal.

Yeah.

Yeah, and for me, the, the relationship 1.0, as Kylie was saying, was really, for her, centered around, "I'm a problem.

I can't figure this out." And for me it was, "Well, listen, I got lots of solutions, and I like being needed, and I love that I already have a job where I get to do this and monetize my codependency.

So why not be in a relationship that also really values what I have to bring to the world?" And so there was ...

uh, pursuing or a constant desi- you know, to support her.

What do you need to figure this out? Here I have some insights.

Mm

That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash microdose.

You are evolutionarily and likely, familially and culturally and religiously told and programmed to abandon yourself to belong to a group.

And so then this invitation of how do you evolve and be liberated through relationship, through that, because ultimately what that says is that I'm not willing to tell you the fucking truth because I'm afraid that if I tell it to you, you won't love me anymore.

Well, guess what happens? I don't tell you the truth, much like I stopped pursuing my dreams.

I stopped because I've taken your version of the world and you might've even held your love for me over my head.

And so as a kid, if that's what you learn, Well, you're not adult.

The fear is if I don't get safety and love from this parent, then I don't eat.

You just did one year of therapy in five

months.

I love that there's a graduation because all growth actually should have an ending.

You know, because otherwise you become addicted to the growing, which there's nothing wrong with that.

It's just that what leads someone to self-inquiry is usually some sort of failure, right? Like something's wrong.

I need to fix it.

I need to figure it out.

And I what's this digital detox that you're that you're pushing?

Mm-hmm

... or navigating conflict suc- successfully, because, you know, relationship longevity might be a measure of relational success, but it's certainly not the only one, and certainly not the most accurate one.

And so really recognizing, one, that you've been socialized and cultured, and also if you're a woman, you've especially been socialized to be a people pleaser.

But we've been socialized and cultured to be in relationship, and there's an evolutionary benefit to being in a relationship, you know, because people have survived if they were in groups and all those types of things.

So there's a very real biological fear of being rejected.

You know, it's like if I speak my voice, I might get hurt.

I might get kicked out of this tribe.

Exhale

You had tried yourself to exhaustion, yeah.

We did everything and, and really what was beautiful about-That and, and why I'm so grateful that I got to walk that healing path with Kylie 'cause there's no blame.

I was part of it.

I chose it.

I consented to it.

Um, and it would be easy for me to hold a hierarchy of like, "I was good.

She wounded me," but I fully chose that because I needed to work through what was happening for me.

Thank you for your time.

Yeah

...

in a level of commitment, a level of communication? And I think it's so layered.

I think the first part is that when we invite men to that, the conversation about masculinity is that masculinity is toxic.

But that's not masculinity that's toxic.

It's unintegrated pain.

It's trauma.

[laughs]