Yeah.

You know, um, And I'm a big believer in this because that's honestly how the book came about.

I got this book deal when I was 42.

And I thought it was never going to happen.

I thought, well, for years I was like, I want to be a writer, but... you know, the ship has, I was like, I'm in my forties.

I mean, the ship has sailed.

I have no, I'm, this is not going to happen.

Yeah.

So talk a little bit about situations, and you, you don't have to be specific, but you know, having a trauma, that's, that's an, a problem, isn't it?

Yeah, and I think like...

So I, I was a sociology major in college, and so I think a lot about like structures and especially power structures.

So I think when you have a traditional workplace, right, and you have a hierarchy, you have a boss, um, you have kind of these unspoken rules about like, oh, these are the types of people who succeed, and these are the kind of like butt-kissing behaviors that you have to do to like get ahead, right? Um, and it's a game, right? It's, it's a game, and so I think especially when you're in kind of a pressure cooker, you're, you, you're sort of friendly but also competing with people around you, right? There's only a limited number of promotions available.

Um, and your livelihood, and in the US, your healthcare is tied to your job.

[chuckles] Like, it, you know, when you think about how these power structures play together, any, any normal human dynamic that would happen at work, right? Like, oh, I don't feel like I'm being acknowledged for my work, or, you know, oh, I don't-- Like they told me the job was gonna be one thing, but then it's actually another.

I think that kind of stuff can actually be really painful, um, because the stakes are pretty high.

Yeah.

Can you tell me a little bit about your journey and maybe if you feel comfortable, some of the personal career wounds that you've had to deal with?

Yeah, yeah.

I really never like thought I was gonna be a coach.

Like I started off and, you know, my career was in marketing and advertising.

And so I worked in a bunch of like really big ad agencies in New York.

I, you know, went to grad school, you know, to study business.

I really thought I'm just gonna be some like high powered senior executive.

Like

How can information from those sources be accessed, and then how can it be applied to your work life?

Yeah, that's a great question.

So I think that we can get...

I'm gonna put this into language for people who maybe are a little more skeptical, [laughs] 'cause if you're already so bought into, you know, a spiritual life, you know, I think it's probably more useful for people who may be a little skeptical.

So we can get information in a lot of different ways, and the primary way that we are trained to get information in today's modern corporate world is analytical information, KPIs, OKRs, numbers, facts, cold, hard science, measurable results, things that you can touch and feel and see and measure over time.

And so we lean on that, right? Anytime we want to make a decision, we make a pro and con list.

We ask Claude, "Oh, here are all the angles, and tell me what I should do based on these factors," right? [laughs] And the problem with that, the problem with an over-reliance on an analytical mind, it's not actually tapping into your soul's purpose and what, what your heart wants to do.

What is the first thing you might have a person like that do to start to shift that reality?

So can we speak a little bit, at least for the time being, can we speak to how to cope with those kinds of situations?

Yeah.

I think it's important to look at the relationship through the lens of power and control.

So in what ways is this person exerting control over you? And then in what ways are you rejecting that behavior or enabling that behavior? And I think it's important to even in like the most toxic situations to understand where you still have agency because in my work with people, like in my work with clients, what I see a lot of is people who don't know how to say no because of fear of conflict or fear of consequence and also people pleasing.

And so it's hard work, but I like to look at those patterns and be like, hey, when did you start people pleasing? When did you realize that that was beneficial or that you would get something good out of that? So whenever there's like a toxic relationship, I like to ask open-ended questions to my clients and I'll say like, okay, what are the benefits of of like, I agree, this is a little messed up, but what are the benefits of this? Because you get a request at 10 p.m.

at night, you respond, it's draining you.

You're feeling like, I don't know how much longer I can do this.

So I'm curious, what was a moment or the moment if there was one significant one from your own career that made you realize that something had gone wrong under the surface?

So like, how did you finally feel comfortable in your skin, in your identity? Was that a process? And like, let's talk about the opportunities that came once you found that.

Yeah.

I mean, I'll say this, like during COVID, I was working for, I was working for a company.

I was like a director of account management.

Basically my clients were like Microsoft and ServiceNow and like all these like corporate clients.

And my job was like to do client management.

And I was really good at that job because it's basically just like kissing people's asses.

That was like a, like a lightning bolt.

Not to say it still might not happen even, but when you come to that place where you feel like you've hit an obstacle or you get some data that tells you or you don't get the promotion or your AMH is low or whatever that data is that comes at you that tells you like, oh, you're not going to get this thing that you thought you were going to get.

Yeah.

It's hard.

No, it is.

It's so hard.

And I mean, I think there's kind of two pathways that I typically like to explore with a client.

One is truly taking the time to acknowledge that that was like a big dream and that we are going to feel these feelings of grief and to experience that and to talk about it.

So what does this phrase, the wisdom of the body mean to you, Mandy?