And so why is it stable? Well, maybe because it is sort of Afghan may be the answer.

Hmm.

If I may, I have a somewhat different view [chuckles] on this, less because I necessarily disagree with Graeme, but because I think we just don't really know.

And the degree of information we have about what any particular number or proportion of Afghans want in terms of policies for governing the country, it's very hard to say.

Um, that doesn't mean that the Taliban haven't enjoyed genuine popularity, but how much popularity in the context of a, a very repressive government, I think it's just hard to have really reliable information about that.

But the reason for the relative stability in Afghanistan is because the insurgency won and the counterinsurgency collapsed, and that contest- contestation between the insurgency and the counterinsurgency was the primary reason for, not the only reason, but the primary reason for violence in Afghanistan.

And on top of that, there is less of a domestic source of opposition, mobilized, armed opposition to the Taliban now than there was when the US invaded the country after 9/11.

But also, looking forward, I have to think that the fact that you had 20 years of Afghan women and girls enjoying a very different kind of life and different kinds of opportunities, uh, obviously, um, in a, in a much more violent context in many cases, but still with access to education and jobs and other things, and I have to think that that makes the repression of women and girls more complicated for the Taliban this time around, that there's a, a persistent change that would still present challenges even if, uh, the kind of policy impulse is to, to go back to something resembling the pre-2001 sort of status quo.

I asked her first, was it a mistake for the US to leave when it did and how it did?

I don't believe it was a mistake for the US to exit Afghanistan, but I do think there are a lot of errors that were made along the way over a long period of time.

Uh, and I do think there are ways that the withdrawal could have been implemented more, more smoothly to a certain extent.

But, you know, I do think people tend to forget that at the time that the US withdrew, um, Afghanistan was still very much a hot conflict, and there were more people dying in Afghanistan in conflict than anywhere else in the world at that time.

Not Americans, but Afghans.

And so any suggestion that this was a sustainable conflict has to bring into that picture the effect on everyone, particularly Afghans.

I mean, was it irresponsible then for President Biden to continue with the withdrawal at that point?

You know, the Taliban was gaining ground in Afghanistan over a very long period of time, not only at the end.