Julia, uh, uh, listening to her, I ju- I just think, when do you know then that, that there might be a problem that absolutely needs to be addressed, when you realize that that good enough actually isn't good enough?

Well, John and Julie Gottman, who've done most of the research on, um, good relationships, say there are kind of horsemen of the a- apocalypse, which is resentment, um, blocking, like stonewalling, um, contempt, um, and, uh, uh, uh, dismissing, you know, diminishing.

And so I think, a- and I agree with what Natasha was saying, I think you can have-- I think one of the great qualities that enables a relationship to survive is the capacity to adapt and change through the relationship.

You know, you can-- I've said in my book that you can have five marriages with the same person over the time, because as you grow and develop, and you-- people die, or you lose your job, or you have a baby, the great The important thing is to know how to adapt and grow through those changes, which at the time are deeply painful.

And when we're in a painful phase, we are by no means our best self.

You know, we're not the kind person writing a little note saying, "I love you." We're kind of just about existing.

So I think it is about being able to adapt.

... how common is that kind of tension where one partner does want to talk about things, the other doesn't?

So tell us about epigenetics and also the somatics of, somatic nature of, of, of trauma as well.

So, I mean, just to, as an overarching kind of what research shows, is that not every traumatic event gives you PTSD, post-traumatic stress dy- disorder.

Probably 20% of traumatic events give you PTSD.

So a single event that is traumatic that isn't linked to insecure attachment of lots of kinda small mini traumas before, people can recover between six and eight weeks.

They're kind of very disturbed to begin with, have flashbacks, and then they process it if they get the right support at the time.

And so PTSD is often linked more to chronic trauma, where it's continued injury f- and shock and a, you know, trauma, the Greek word for trauma is wound, so it's a wounding of the psyche.

When you're talking about epigenetics and pregnancy and your mum-When a, a baby dies, that tears up the rule book of life.

How do we know when to let the objects go?

Mm-hmm.

And so I could see in your face that you went back to the place it was, and you can remember so much about it.

Of course, you've done it a long time now, so you won't remember everyone.

But you'll remember a lot of them, and they live in you, those experiences.

And they do also influence your next event that happens.

And, I mean, we'll talk about how you debrief yourself so that you kind of come to a new event later.

clean as it were the experience of grief that at the moment at that moment the person has died the task of grief and the process is mourning the process of grieving is mourning is to find a way of living with and facing the reality of the death and that's the task and that doesn't mean that you live with the reality and you kind of put it behind you and you forget about it It's finding a way of accommodating this new piece of reality that your mother has died, your brother has died, or in the terrible cases, your child has died.

family is very

But how do you reflect on what Elle's just described there?

Well, it's just so interesting.

I mean, I think Christmas is a particularly emotionally loaded time, you know, and it's freighted with memory and tradition and rituals.

And that gets, as she talked about, triggered or ignited by our senses that work...

Zoom is back.

They work a million times faster than our thinking and they're ignited by our senses, sight, sound, touch, smell and taste.

So as she said, the minute she walked through the door, it's like time travel going back to her teenage self or even her eight-year-old self.

What would you say to Wendy, Julia? Well, I'd say to Wendy

But how do you reflect on what Elle's just described there?

Well, it's just so interesting.

I mean, I think Christmas is a particularly emotionally loaded time, you know, and it's freighted with memory and tradition and rituals.

So and that gets, as you talked about, triggered or ignited by our senses that work differently.

Zoom is back.

They work a million times faster than our thinking.

And they're ignited by our senses, sight, sound, touch, smell and taste.

What would you say to Wendy, Julia?

(laughs)

... that no one wants to hear, but hear me out.

We tend to think that grief begins with death, but really grief begins the moment we sense something precious slipping away.

Grief begins with love.

When a person, a pet, a dream, a way of life is ending, knowing this won't last is where grief takes root.

And here, Thanatos and Eros come into view, two forces inextricably linked.

Eros, the god of love, Thanatos, the Greek spirit of death.

(Instrumental music)