Yeah.

So it's like, yeah, he might be sacrificing shots, but I don't think he was sacrificing anything about his perception, either with Knick fans or around the NBA.

That's one thing.

The thing with [laughs] the unlocking Kat conversation, I, I'm, I'm gonna make a plea to everybody out there.

Could we finally put this one to bed? I, I, I, I'm asking politely, because we've been asking this question about Kat since he's entered the league.

And I think where I've arrived at, at least, is like- He's a very non-traditional player.

You know, there's a little Jokic, there's a little KD, there's a little, you know, insert your more traditional center here.

... just won a championship, and that the front office is going to be making these decisions based on not going over the second apron that could affect or impact their chances to repeat this year, or just long-term prospects of keeping this window open where they can compete?

She didn't know what it meant.

Um, yeah, so it's not even, like, it, it, that, um, like you said, it's not even just Knicks fans.

It's, like, um, if you, if you scroll Twitter, like, the day after, uh, Brunson h- hosted SNL, uh, and, you know, there's pictures of, like, all of them on stage, it, like, the, the...

It is the most used word.

And I would even go further in to say, like, I cannot remember another champion in any sport that was universally described by one word, one term, more than this Knicks team has been described by the term likable.

Um, and it's funny because I, like...

And that wasn't even the, uh, the funny part.

The season, yeah.

Maybe a sprinkle little bit more uh of small ball five a little bit you know a tiny bit of og at the five for a five minute stretch every couple weeks i i so i i like the idea of what the next front court could look like without mitchell robinson but maybe i'm just you know too optimistic about about the team right now how what do you say about that

no i don't think you're too optimistic i mean a couple things one it's tough for me to talk about Mitchell Robinson and the contract objectively because of everything you said before he was the longest tenured Nick he was here when the team was a 17 I think 17 win disaster yeah it sounds about right um you know and and he did grow and it's more than that he grew as a player he was you know I'll never forget his first press conference in New York he was the shyest kid you'd ever want to meet you know I think it was the first time he'd probably ever been out of his hometown of Louisiana, other than the half a week he went to Western Kentucky for college.

And then he grew from that into a guy who was probably the best quote in the locker room, universally regarded as the funniest guy in the locker room.

I mean, he was beloved.

He was beloved by his teammates.

He was beloved by fans.

And, oh, yeah, he made game-changing and series-changing plays.

But I think there's a chance they're even better this year.

Big deal or no big deal?

So I think the fact that talks have stagnated is not in and of itself a big deal.

I think, you know, where the Knicks are at and where I'm sure KAT's representation is at, um, I, I don't, uh, you know, uh, not to say the line that has been said a thousand times when talking about this sorta stuff in the NBA.

These guys are all professionals.

Karl-Anthony Towns has been there, done that.

I don't think it's gonna affect his play.

Um, you know, I, I, I think the Knicks know that he knows that they want him, and I think especially after he saw Mitch leave, which he said at, at media day today came as a shock to him, I think everybody at this point understands the severity of, you know, James Dolan's, I'll call it an edict 'cause I don't know what else you would refer to it as, that the Knicks have to stay under the second apron seemingly in perpetuity.

We'll see how it goes in the playoffs, but I think there's a chance they're even better this year.

... what drove you to start contributing to the space?

Um, uh, so I don't know why.

That's a great question.

I mean, I know, I, I...

So I, I had a, so when I left law, part of the reason I wanted to leave law was to, so I could have a little bit more time, because I felt like my job was, as a lawyer, was one, I didn't like it, and two, it was, like, dominating my life.

And I, I knew I wanted to have more time, and I remember this, I remember the feeling of like, part, one of the things I wanna do or the primary thing I wanna do at that time is I wanna write.

Which is funny, because I was never a writer.

... is there anything that, that you wanted to clarify or just explain that hasn't really been approached as much before?

You kind of go into that playoffs like, okay,

okay, we'll see.

And I don't even think that lack of confidence was dissipated all that much After the first round.

Because yeah they beat the Pistons.

But like that was.

That was a tough series.

But looking back.

What's the last case you got for this?

You kind of go into that playoffs like, okay,

okay, we'll see.

And I don't even think that lack of confidence was dissipated all that much after the first round because, yeah, they beat the Pistons, but, like, that was not impressive.

That was a tough series.

Yeah.

But looking back, Pistons.

The year after that, they go on to win 60 games.

What's the last case you got for this?

But as a whole, that statement of, hey, we're not going over the second apron, your reaction and your feeling towards it is what?

If I believed... 100% that James Dolan had, you know, spent all the spare time over the last seven months studying up, reading and rereading the CBA and coming to a calculated decision that, you know, the notion of going into the second apron in one year and then ducking it in subsequent years was fool's gold and that it's just better to stay out of it for as long as you can stay out of it, I would have no problem with it.

And if I knew that he made that decision in true consultation with the front office, I would have even less problem with it.

I'm suspecting that James Dolan is being a little cheap here because we could talk all we want about second aprons.

If you re-sign Mitchell Robinson to what it would have taken to get him, you are then deep into the luxury tax.

And with the salaries that are going to be coming up in future years, It's only going to get more expensive.

Now, it's easy for me to say it's not my money.

How cool is that?

I can't see how they did.

In a vacuum, which is to say putting aside the self-imposed mandate by the Knicks owner, and it, it, this was an ownership-driven decision, maybe somewhat in concert with the front office, maybe not.

Depends on who you believe.

But, like, you know, the Knicks owner came out on the radio, whatever it was, a week and a half ago and said, "We're not going to the second apron." Putting that part of it aside, in a vacuum, is three years at the full mid-level with a player option on the third year an overpay for Mitchell Robinson? I think that answer is somewhat context dependent, and here's what I mean by that.

I think what we learned this year, uh, with a full season of Mitchell Robinson under the Knicks, uh, I could say this 'cause they have won whatever the award is the NBA gives for this sort of thing, award-winning medical staff, and which entailed no back-to-backs.

There was never, like, a specific minutes limit, so to speak.

Mitch played, think there were some games this, this year he played in the high 20s, over 25.

But I feel like the number one question here for me, having not followed Mitch closely enough where I can reel off where the injuries have came from, what type of injuries he, he's had, are, is it one injury that's reoccurring, where it's a longstanding issue, or is it just he's one of these guys that picks them up?

Right, right

...

so I don't actually know i- if withal, like, the, the lack of weight, the lack of outside weight, you can, you can have the same amount of meaning that Jalen Brunson has now in this day and age with social media and all the different things that we all engage with on a daily basis.

So then the only other name that comes to my mind is Patrick.

And I often struggle, uh, as listeners of mine will know, with how to balance, uh, a length of time with ceiling or with accomplishment or whatever.

And Patrick being a warrior for 15 years, never scaled the mountaintop, but he was a warrior for 15 years.

You know, in the NBA, obviously, it was under, you know, that was Michael Jordan's era.

It can't be.

Well, I guess, what do you see there with Brunson that we're not seeing the, you know, the, the 50% shooting, uh, 40% shooting from three, things like that, and it's so much lower?

Um, I, I just think what the Spurs are doing in, in terms of showing him bodies and, yeah, I, I...

To your point about the shooting percentage, I looked it up, um, this morning, and his effective field goal percentage for the series, I, I want to say is around 43 or so percent.

Um, that's not only the lowest of any playoff series of his career, it's lowest by a, a significant amount.

So this is by far the least efficient that he has ever been, and that is including last night, which was, believe it or not, his most efficient shooting game.

Um, you know, I thi- f- the way I, I phrased it, I think it's two things.

Number one, um, the Spurs have some very, very high level defenders.

Mm-hmm.

My favorite two words

... uh, and yet, barring something crazy, and look, the NBA is where crazy stuff happens, this Spurs team's gonna be here for the next decade.

I, I, I know second apron and all that crap, but, like, they, they'd be crazy to break up this, this core, and specifically Wemby and Harper, who I've...

I mean, I've compared them to Shaq and Kobe, like, uh, in terms of what they could potentially become.

So, like, they...

And I think they've already kind of realized, like, "Oh, whoops, we thought we won the title in the last round," which I think maybe is partially why they're down 2-0 right now, to, you know, p- putting aside I think the Knicks have played good ball.

So, like, yeah, the pressure's on the Spurs, but, like, I, I think even subconsciously, I think they know they'll be back, you know? And they'll probably be back multiple times.

That's why I think there's, there's almost a disbelief to this historic run that the Knicks are on, where you had question marks about KAT, you had question marks about Mikal Bridges to a certain extent, a- and what they gave up, and now they're all of a sudden, uh, uh, like you mentioned, a switch flipped, and they're on one of the best runs we've ever seen from a basketball team.

That's why I think there's, there's almost a disbelief to this historic run that the Knicks are on, where you had question marks about KAT, you had question marks about Mikal Bridges to a certain extent, a- and what they gave up, and now they're all of a sudden, uh, uh, like you mentioned, a switch flipped, and they're on one of the best runs we've ever seen from a basketball team.

I, like, if you would've watched this team at certain games during the, after or during, and, and, and talked about them after certain games during the year, you would've bet anything this isn't a contending team.

Like, you know a contending team when you see it.

Um, at the same time, like, I, uh, again, if, I don't always follow my own advice, but something I like to say is that development isn't always linear, which is, we, we say that about, like, young prospects.

I think it's the same goes for a team as well.

So, like, new coach, ask Karl-Anthony Towns to embody a new role on offense, Jalen Brunson to a certain extent, everybody, like, deepening the bench, the whole thing.

And so I think-You know, it, it, we all told ourselves as Knick fans before the year, like, "Okay, this is gonna be a rollercoaster ride." Like, it's not, it's not gonna be like go out and win every game at all, all, all costs like it was under Thibs.

[laughs]

Wh- what's the difference between what Thibodeau was doing last year and Mike Brown was doing this year from a, uh, rotation standpoint?

Uh, I think from a rotation standpoint, Mike Brown throughout the season has definitely gone deeper into his bench.

You know, you know, guys who aren't even in the rotation now, y- guys like Tyler Kolek, Mohamed Diawara, um, you know, those guys got time throughout the year, and I think the benefit of that was twofold.

One, it gave all of the players on the roster, you know, experience that they wouldn't have gotten, and two, I think it, it, it made it a little bit easier on the veterans who didn't have to play, you know, so many minutes.

I, I think it is, you know, helpful that the team is, is a little bit deeper this year.

Obviously they went out and got José Alvarado.

That was a big acquisition for them.

[laughs]

Mm.

You know, uh, look, and, and you could've said that after last postseason, but...

A- and he had some big fourth quarters in the, in the 2025 playoffs, to be very clear.

But, uh, you know, if you look by and large at his shooting- Over the course of the 2025 playoffs.

It was nowhere near what it has been over the course of these playoffs, and that's even with what was a pretty slow start for him over the course of the, the first five games against Atlanta.

I mean, t- to me, you know, put aside the last six minutes, the defining stretch of game two was when, uh, Mike Brown opted to take Jalen Brunson off the court and, and Karl-Anthony Towns was in foul trouble.

I, I think Brunson was gassed, uh, which maybe speaks to his ineffectiveness.

What's your biggest X factor for Game 3, and then how do you see Game 3 playing out? Do you see it as a Knicks win? Do you see it as a Knicks loss? Give me your biggest X factor and prediction for Game 3.

Yeah

... he's very tall and he has a big reach.

Um, but he also is very smart and he's always locked in.

That said, um, the thing that makes this offense for the Knicks very special and why I think there's a lot of optimism around New York that they'll actually be able to pull this off is they have kind of...

You know, they have a lot of very, uh, very individually talented players, Jalen Brunson first among them.

But this is a team that was put together, you know, over the course of several years specifically with the mindset of, how can we get the most amount of basketball skill on the court at one time? And they really do, when they're playing right and they're, and they're hitting their mark, um, it is like a symphony on the basketball court.

So-

Knicks in...

And I'm guessing when those two titles were won, they were some rare sparks of light and brightness.

Look, the late 60s and early 70s was a time of great change in New York City.

You had a mayor by the name of John Lindsay, who was thought of as kind of, you know, a potential, you know, John F. Kennedy Jr. in terms of very young politician came into the mayorality with a lot of big, grand ideas in the 60s.

And then by the time he left, the city wasn't quite in shambles, but it was almost unrecognizable from the city that he took over.

You know, the next championships occurred, you know, during that time.

And I would say that part of the reason why when you hear, you know, folks who were in their sixties or seventies or eighties talk about those teams is Yes, it is because the brand of basketball that they played was so unique in that it really was truly a team, more than one or two stars, which, by the way, is similar to how this team has been playing, despite the fact that Jalen Brunson is obviously an exceptional basketball player.

But more than the team itself, it really was what it did for the city and how intertwined that team was.

He's... incredibly reliable but he's also reliably brilliant at the same time and i think that's perhaps his best quality

[laughs]

... because I went i- on my show, uh, after a loss to the Pistons, the first game after the All-Star break, and I said, and I felt it at the time, "I cannot wait until they blow up this team in the summer because I'm sick and tired of watching the inconsistent basketball, the lack of seriousness, and the fact that these guys go out there too often," and talking specifically about the starting five, which, you know, me and CP have been talking about for the last two years, don't feel like they- they're a group of guys that like to go out and play with each other, you know, and play for each other.

So the reason I bring that up is to answer your question.

The biggest thing to me that has changed is...

And, and I think Karl-Anthony Towns may have had this on a T-shirt at some point in the earlier rounds, is the selflessness, and the sacrifice, and the fact that you have five guys who are going out there and y- you know, it's just about what is the right play.

And like, you know, my, my beloved departed Tom Thibodeau always used to talk about, you know, making the right reads-

They, they put the ball in the cat's hands.

It's, it's funny you s- you, you start the Mike Brown discussion with the adaptability and the willingness to change, and that's absolutely true.

[laughs]

... because I went i- on my show, uh, after a loss to the Pistons, the first game after the All-Star break, and I said, and I felt it at the time, "I cannot wait until they blow up this team in the summer because I'm sick and tired of watching the inconsistent basketball, the lack of seriousness, and the fact that these guys go out there too often," and talking specifically about the starting five, which you know, me and CP have been talking about for the last two years, "don't feel like they, they're a group of guys that like to go out and play with each other, you know, and play for each other." So the reason I bring that up is to answer your question, the biggest thing to me that has changed is...

and, and I think Carl Anthony Towns may have had this on a T-shirt at some point in the earlier rounds, is the selflessness and the sacrifice, and the fact that you have five guys who are going out there and y- you know, it's just about what is the right play.

And like, you know, my, my beloved departed Tom Thibodeau always used to talk about, you know, making the right reads and, and, and making the right play.

Uh, first of all, they're not doing this under Thibs.

Never would've happened.

We could call a spade a spade.

They, they put the ball in the Cat's hands.

Do you think there's a wide gap between the Knicks and the Cavs?

I don't think that there's a wide gap in terms of certainly talent, and I, I don't, I don't even think that there's a wide gap in terms of if you look at, like, the various battlegrounds, uh, within the series, like, what, what one team can do to bother the other team and, you know, the answers that, you know, that maybe the Knicks could find versus the answers that the Cavs could find.

I do think, though, that there is an execution gap between what we have seen through two games.

And, uh, I...

Look, I, I watched your guys' series with the Pistons very closely because obviously I was hoping that the Knicks would, would play one of you guys in the, in the next round, the round that we're in right now.

And I completely agree with your assessment that y- you guys did not, um, approach that, you know, the...

I, I mean, much like the Raptors series, I don't think you approached the Detroit series with the level of seriousness that you needed to.

Uh, if you were Atkinson, would you make the same approach for game three, or would you just change off that after what he did in game two?

Yeah.

And, you know, I, I'm, I'm curious if there is an adjustment there at all.

And then on the, the, the Cat piece of it, it, it was, it was obvious that what worked the, the last two defensive teams that they faced was not gonna work here.

Philly had obviously myriad issues with Embiid defensively.

But for as great as the, uh, defense as the Hawks was dur- or were during the end of the regular season, they did not have the personnel equipped to, to, to counter that.

So my biggest question on the offensive end is how much or how quickly do they pivot away from Josh Hart?If Josh Hart doesn't come out and hit two of his first three threes tonight, and then what are you doing with Kat? Is this just going to be a series where Kat has to make an impact on the offensive glass, um, you know, as a three-point shooter? We saw him take five threes.

I'd like that to be a little bit more.

but we're gonna lower your minute totals and, and go to some other looks"? How much do you anticipate that being the case?

Is this a more favorable or unfavorable matchup now that we know it won't be the Celtics, it's gonna be Embiid, Maxey, George, Edgecombe, and the Sixers?

So I think you have to look at it from a, from a couple of different perspectives.

It...

The answer to that question sh- does not imply that they, the Knicks would've had no issues with, like, one of these teams or another.

The Knicks are gonna have issues with Philly.

We're gonna get into them, because I think the Sixers present some really difficult challenges as far as when the Knicks are trying to guard them.

What I will say is I think the Knicks have a variety of answers for covering Philadelphia, um, and it's a matter of what they go to first, what, what's plan A, what's plan B, what's plan C.

I was there for that.

What do you think?

I mean, something that I've wondered as we have seen up- really up until now, the starting lineup underperform for the last two years is a question of role and guys wondering, you know, where are my,um, are my shot attempts gonna be there tonight or am I, or is this gonna be a night where ...

A- and I think having OG Anunoby, you know, kind of grab that number three baton and run with it, I, I think has been great for him and I think it's been great for the team.

I was just looking up before, if you look in the NBA they have stats for points per touch.

And among players in the postseason who are playing at least 20 minutes a game, OG Anunoby is fourth behind, uh, SGA, Victor Wembanyama and, and Dillon Brooks, who loves to shoot it.

Um, that's pretty good.

You know? So i- he, he's doing well with his allotted usage.

Mm.

This stuff, yeah.

Uh, so I was, I was in a, I was in a foul mood that night.

But you know what it was, I think, for me that night? It came after the Pistons game, the first game after the All-Star break, and we had just heard Mike Brown talk about how, "Look, these guys have punked us.

I, you know, we better come into this game and show what we're made of." And so to preface it with that- And then we've, we had kind of watched a year and a half of this team, you know, consistently not live up to what their talent is.

And to me, when I think about what do I love about teams, I, I compared it that night to the '23, '24 team, you know, is the consistent effort that you know what you're gonna get every night.

And, it, you know, at times this team has been the opposite of that.

And I, and I don't like that, you know? But to try to put a positive spin on it, I do think it's been a bit of a journey.

What about you, J-Mac?

Watched the whole second half, yeah.

As, as I watched, I think I started watching in the middle of the third quarter, so we watched about the same amount of basketball.

We're like, okay, Oklahoma City lost that game.

That shouldn't, maybe it does, and we don't lis- uh, we don't listen to Thunder, I don't, I don't listen to Thunder post-game shows.

Maybe you do in your spare time.

But, like, I would, I would wager that for as much as a Thunder post-game show might react to that game as like, "Man, this team has some real chinks in the armor.

They're, they're a way, th- this team could lose the championship," that's different than the sorts of existential crisis questions that seem to get asked after many a Knick loss.

Mm-hmm