If the federal government bailed out the auto industry here in Detroit, should it also bail out the Detroit schools?

Well, look, first of all, I think the mayor now is controlling the schools.

This is not much different than what happened in Cleveland, Ohio, where the African-American Democrat mayor, the union, and business leaders came to see me and said, would you help us to pass legislation to really create a CEO environment that so that we can take control of the schools.

We even invested in a buyout plan where we bought out the teachers who had been there a long time because there were so many young teachers who had been laid off who were so enthusiastic to get back in the schools.

It worked beautifully.

Cleveland's coming back.

The Cleveland schools are coming back because of a major overhaul.

DO GAY MARRIAGE DISSENTERS HAVE

Yeah.

It's out there with the shoe leather.

And one of them said to me, they, they were very good guys, I like them a lot.

They said to me, "Well, we got good shoe leather in, in Georgia.

We got good shoe leather in North Carolina." I said, "North Carolina? You guys won that thing big." "Oh, well, the governor's race." I said, "Well, what about the rest of the country?" Not so good.

Now, does the enthusiasm for just having the Democrats win and deliver a message to Trump-

Mm-hmm.

Is, do you want to ru- do you want to rule as a American, or do you want to rule as a Democrat? And what do I mean by that? There are issues the Democrats feel strongly about that they ought to pursue, but at the same time, both Republicans and Democrats agree that we've shifted too much power to the executive.

In 1994, when you were in Congress, you proposed a plan requiring ind- an individual mandate, so what changed?

Well, Dana, the Heritage Foundation had this position as well, and when I look at it, I don't think it's tenable.

And we don't need to do that.

Again, I'm telling you that we are going to h- we have a proposal, a plan that we're enacting now that says if you are a hospital or a doctor and you're providing very high quality at lower prices below the midpoint, some charge high, some charge low.

If you are below the midpoint, we are going to give you a financial reward for allowing you to provide services that result in high quality for our people at lower prices.

That is the way in which we are going to damp down the rising cost of healthcare.

'Cause if you think about your own deductibles today, they're going higher, higher, and higher.

Can Mr. Trump's plan work?

How can you argue that this overall growth fits in with conservative ambitions to significantly cut back on the size of federal welfare programs?

Well, first of all, those numbers are incorrect.

We are, our Medicaid programs are coming in below cost estimates.

And our Medicaid program in the second year grew at two and a half percent.

And Kimberly, let me tell you, when we expand Medicaid and we treat the mentally ill, then they don't live under a bridge or live in a prison where they cost $22,500 a year.

When we take the drug addicted and we treat them in the prisons, we stop the revolving door of people in and out of prisons, and we save 22,000, uh, $22,500 a year.

Guess what else? They get their lives back.

You talked about in New Hampshire, Democrats would come up to you and say, "I hope you win." Why will that help you win a Republican nomination?

Some?

...

the federal budget balanced? You have to plead with people.

To do what we've done in Ohio, you have to plead with people.

Then you go back down to Washington and do the same thing.

You see, we have to remind people we're Americans before we're Republicans and Democrats.

And when we wait and when we delay, what we end up doing, Mary Katharine, is we make the United States weaker.

[applauding]

This is public testimony.

Yeah, but I, I, uh, just have to tell you that it's best with some of these things not be said.

Now, I wanna go back to something.

See, I was there when Reagan rebuilt the military.

I was there in '89 when the wall came tumbling down because we were strong.

And I was there when we went in the Gulf War, and we didn't win that war just from the air.

We won that war by assembling a group of Arab leaders who stood in the Rose Garden and stood with America.

[laughs]

So what does it say about our country that a candidate who is a self-avowed socialist and who doesn't think a 90 percent tax rate is too high could be the Democratic nominee?

Well, if that's the case, we're going to win every state if Bernie Sanders is the nominee.

That's not even an issue.

But look, and I know Bernie, and I can promise you he's not going to be President of the United States.

So here's the situation, I think, Maria.

And this is what we have to—I've got to tell you, when wages don't rise, and they haven't for a lot of families for a number of years, it's very, very difficult for them.

Part of the reason why it hasn't risen is because sometimes we're not giving people the skills they need.

U.S. energy player Carol Hamm recently told me, with friends like these, who needs enemies?

What can you tell us about how important this issue is in Ohio?

Ohio?Well, there's a lot of people don't like these data centers, and so right now it's, it's a hot issue.

But I kinda look at this as something that passes.

It's here today and gone tomorrow.

The big push is gonna be, frankly, you can't locate these data centers in these big population areas, number one.

And number two, that if you're gonna have a data center, you're gonna have to bring power to power that data center, your own power.

You're not gonna be able to rely on rate payers, and that's where the problem is now.

W- what do you think, Governor?

But isn't the threat alone the concern?

Well, it's always a concern when somebody's saying that somehow they're gonna do something to disrupt an election.

But do I think that's actually gonna happen? I, I, I don't, Peter.

I, I think that's just a bridge too far, and I think there are enough Republicans now who are beginning to become more independent, uh, and speak out more independently, thank goodness, uh, that wouldn't tolerate it.

So I'd keep an eye on it.

I have a lot of Democrat friends that call me and talk to me about it, but right now I still remain positive that we'll have an honest result, and, um, and I, I think the, the country will abide by it.

That's my sense.

Just your gut on this as you look ahead to 2028 and this potential rivalry.

... a reflection of what Republican voters really feel.

Yeah, but, you know, look, uh, what's gonna happen in this fall is Republicans are gonna lose the House.

Uh, I don't know whether they're gonna win the S- uh, whether the Democrats are gonna win the Senate or not.

I think that's on a knife's edge, but in the House there is no doubt in my mind that, uh, Democrats are gonna win it, and they're gonna win it, uh, frankly because two reasons.

One is, uh, the, uh, uh, Republican voters are tired.

They're not gonna come out.

Why are they gonna come out? Now, Trump used, uh, a ploy the other day when he said, "Think about the fact that I'm on the ballot." Um, and maybe that got some people encouraged, but you see the support.

Four hundred million, yeah.

Mm

... of the, those premiums down.

I think that.

I think they're probably gonna, interestingly enough, probably try to talk about the tariffs, uh, the fact that it's driving up prices, and maybe they ought to be a little bit more focused.

Um, maybe they'll even come out with some ideas about a comprehensive immigration bill, which people, I think, would welcome.

And then I think also they have an opportunity to do something with Republicans if they're willing to try to begin to seize power back from the executive branch and restore it to the legislative branch.

So I, I think right now they talk impeachment because they wanna keep the [laughs] fundraising going, but at the end, I think it would be a major mistake.

Governor, is there gonna be a desire on the other side, Republicans, if Democrats retake control and launch any investigations, will there be a desire among Republicans to work with Democrats to address affordability, to get things done?

Are you worried about the debt, Governor?

all my lifetime.

Of course I have been.

And sometime the chickens will come home to roost, to quote a famous preacher.

And, you know, the debt, look, part of the problem is, Katie, we're paying more for interest on the national debt than we're spending on national security.

I mean, it's completely out of control.

And Republicans and Democrats, they're just spenders.

What happens next, Governor?

Explain.

Well, first of all, I think they're connecting with the voter on the issue of affordability.

But Stephanie, the other thing that's interesting is they're also out there face to face.

They are they are not only touching on issues that people care about, but they're also energizing their supporters.

And so their supporters are like working like crazy.

uh to make great contact with voters out there and i think that's why they are winning uh in some of these primaries some of which is really stunning so if you're just a blah blah candidate and just look at what happened in florida uh we had a candidate for the senate or for for the for the senate who was like he wasn't really saying anything that got people excited he he was a sort of establishment now here's the issue as i see it stephanie It's OK to be part of the establishment.

But what you have to do is have bold ideas about how you're going to impact the establishment.

Create your first Monday agent in minutes at Monday.com.

What do we think is happening here? Is this just a step too far? Is it a moment where the GOP, at least to a degree, is trying to create a little space between themselves and an unpopular president?

Well, I mean, look, I mean, this is a problem that plagues both parties.

In this case, we're looking at Republicans.

And I look at the Republicans in two separate ways.

One are the MAGA total loyalists to Trump and the other ones who could be possibly gettable to think about voting another way.

The Democrats are the same way.

They have, you know, the left wing and and then you have other and you have other Democrats who might be gettable, you know, by Republicans.

What's your read on what's going on here?

They don't associate it with bread lines and empty supermarkets of Soviet-era Russia and the USSR, right? Is the president risking governor misunderstanding what the electorate believes?

Well, I think what they're worried about is it's all about the economy at the end of the day.

As I've said, I don't know how many times, when prices are up, when people don't feel good about their future, when there's a question about affordability of housing and things like that, none of which is going to be addressed here at this point, then they start trying to figure out what they can throw out there that can perhaps stick.

And I don't think this is going to work at all.

Now, one thing I would say is I think the Democratic Party has to be willing to stand up and say, look, we are not extreme on the left.

You know, we are really the center center left is who we are.

And, you know, the question is, can the party stand up and.

I mean, that that is essentially what you were just saying, Governor, right?

Governor, what say you?

Well, Leon's pointed out a number of things that I think are exactly right.

I mean, I just I think we're just in.

First of all, we were in a hurry to get in.

And I wonder sometimes and Leon talks about intelligence.

I wonder if the military brass and the intelligence community laid it on the land on the line to the president before he made a decision to go.

I mean, think about this for a second.

Could be down further than that come November, Governor.

Yeah

...

the Democrats were gonna win the House, and I still believe they will, and it's just a question of what the numbers are.

In the Senate, I think it's a lot trickier.

We don't know.

I mean, is Sherrod Brown gonna win in Ohio? Is there's a lot of races here.

What happens in Maine? I mean, there's just a lot of questions about the Senate.

32.6, yes.

Why are you choosing to do this?

First of all, it's, it is gonna be a discussion about politics, but also be a discussion about faith and also a discussion about culture, the people that shape our culture, drive our culture.

You know, Michael, uh, not different than you in many ways.

You know, I've, you and I have been buddies really for a very long time.

Uh, you know, we need a chorus of people who are willing to, like, open their minds and open their ears and listen to other points of view instead of being stuck in the old status quo.

And frankly, there's nothing more boring than being unwilling to change your mind about anything that you might not agree with, right? I mean, I don't like somebody who's a conservative or somebody who's a liberal, so I don't care what they say.

It's so boring, right? So I wanna make sure that we have, just like you do, very interesting and, to some degree, uh, deep discussions.

[laughs]

Is the Trump fever in your party finally breaking?

Well, I think the, the Trump fever in our country is kind of breaking a little bit, but, uh, you know, as Mark Twain said, "Reports of my death are greatly exaggerated," and I think some of that is true when it comes to, to Trump.

He still commands a lot in the party, but as, I think as time goes on, as the economy doesn't recover, as we see healthcare costs increase, when we see these, uh, what I, a just terrible ICE, uh, uh, detain, um, strategy here where they're like yanking people out of places, uh, who are, you know, never done anything, commit a crime in the United States, I think there are Republicans beginning to say, "You know, enough." And remember, everybody who runs for reelection, they can't run on Trump.

They have to run on the basis of can they win again, and they gotta pick their issues.

That's why you're seeing some things break here.

Um, but we're still a l- we're still a long way off from seeing a complete shattering of, uh, of MAGA.

Mm-hmm.

Now, you know, when you take a look at these two ladies who won the governor's races, they were talking about affordability.

Yes, I have.

In the 19, early in the 20th century, as reported by, uh, in a book called The Upswing, uh, a great book, it was the social gospel movement that changed our country from an "I" culture to a "we" culture.

We didn't probably deal with race in the 1960s, and we've sort of lost it, and now we are back in that whole "I" culture where all that matters is me and not anybody else.

And, and that has a profound im- impact on politics.

Let me give you another one.

Look at these social media companies, okay? They know that some of their stuff is affecting children in a very negative way.

In fact, it's affected some families to the point where s- some of these young people have taken their own lives.

in your estimation?

You say that when we are spiritually adrift, we are emotionally adrift.

Yeah, I think there's a lot of truth in that because people can find their way in a number of ways.

Meditation, which I happen to do and believe in, is not inconsistent with the issue of faith.

I think that faith gives you a certain direction.

It gives you a certain confidence.

that there is a higher power that no matter how it looks, cares about us and loves us.

And let me just put it this way.

Governor Kasich, do you recognize what that was?