And so I love it.

Yeah.

And again, appreciate you bringing that up because one of my favorite parts about No Kings is, look, obviously it's great to see, you know, hundreds of thousands of people out in Grant Park in Chicago, out in the Canyon of Heroes in New York City, out in Los Angeles and joint community.

Like, that's great.

And it's awesome to see big numbers.

But I get so excited and just so inspired by seeing, you know, a couple dozen people.

who do a No Kings in a small community in middle America, in a place, by the way, that's not coded red or blue, that people are just really fired up to be in community.

I've been thinking about Snickers.

on?

You know, conspiracy theories about James Tallarico having the flu, which I think we know there's a nasty bug going around.

So no one's surprised at that.

Two things come to mind for me.

First, that three hundred twenty six million dollar figure that you all put up on screen earlier.

I can't actually tell if that includes primary spending, which is money that Republicans spent to defeat Ken Paxton.

Right.

So if they want to make sure, and you're the expert on this, you know, in dumb races, if you want to make sure that you're able to have a grand slam on election day, I think that they need to make sure they're still being competitive in these

Mm-hmm.

And then I think there is a conversation amongst the general public about attitude towards AI.

I think the- There is room probably, and there is an appropriate space for, like, nuance and for us to both go slow and deliberate, but also to not go so slow as to hamstring our ability to be competitive.

But within the public, there is a concern that the people who are in charge, whether it's the policymakers, the, the business leaders, don't fully understand how this is negatively impacting or has the potential to negatively impact people's lives, economic disruption, um, fear of, um, safety, um, things not being adhered to, um, uh, data privacy issues, all, all those types of things that kind of come along with this.

And so I try to think about this as like, what is the hum, what is the soundtrack of those two conversations-

But Joel, given, uh, the, the sort of infighting within the Tem- Democratic Party and then also this, this bigger brand problem that is following Democrats around, uh, how do Dems get the party image out of the gutter?

So I think there's a few things.

I, I actually think there are lessons for everybody a- a- across the coalition.

[laughs] I mean, the, the person acting, um, in the least democratic and most socialist way is Trump.

Yeah.

And, and also just going to that frame, it's like let's make the implicit explicit.

Donald Trump benefits from standing next to a popular, effective, connected leader like Mayor Mamdani, which I actually am convinced is part of the reason why he's, he's backed off of some of the ridiculous breathy criticism of Mamdani because he sees how popular he is and he sees how effective he's been in New York City.

So I guess that's one.

Um, to pick up on Charlie's point, you know, this, this issue of, um, young, uh, Republican voters maybe warming up to, um, whether it's socialism or kind of different ideas, I have a theory that voters just want effectiveness

effectivenessAnd what they see in the White House right now is a significant lack of effectiveness from Donald Trump and from this Trump agenda and from everything he touches.

Joel, um- I don't even know what to say about this one.

How much of an issue is this in Michigan, the identity of El-Sayed in particular, and how is he dealing with it?

Well, look, I think the fact that the Rogers campaign and Republicans nationally are trying to kinda other-ize El-Sayed in the state kinda shows you what their hand is that they have to play, which is, uh, to scare up more votes in their base and to bring out more people by kinda going with a base strategy.

Certainly understand that.

I don't think that that's gonna have the success that I think it's intended to have, for a couple of reasons.

One, they're trying to weaponize kind of Abdul El-Sayed being outside of the system.

I actually think in this cycle, in this moment, an anti-insider moment, I think it helps that El- El-Sayed is kind of a newer voice and someone who represents a newer generation of politics.

Also, I think he's gonna bring out a different coalition of voters, some who were frankly turned off by Democrats in 2024 and in past cycles.

Yeah

How much of an issue is this in Michigan, the identity of El-Sayed particular, and how's he dealing with it?

Well, look, I think the fact that the Rogers campaign and Republicans nationally are trying to kind of otherize El-Sayed in the state kinda shows you what their hand is that they have to play, which is, uh, to scare up more votes in their base and to bring out more people by kind of going with a base strategy.

Certainly understand that.

I don't think that that's gonna have the success that I think it's intended to have for a couple of reasons.

One, they're trying to weaponize kind of Abdul El-Sayed being outside of the system.

I actually think in this cycle, in this moment, an anti-insider moment, I think it helps that El- El-Sayed is kind of a newer voice and someone who represents a newer generation of politics.

Also, I think he's gonna bring out a different coalition of voters, some who were frankly turned off by Democrats in 2024 and in past cycles.

Yeah

How much of an issue is this in Michigan, the identity of al-Sayed in particular, and how is he dealing with it?

Well, look, I think the fact that the Rogers campaign and Republicans nationally are trying to kind of otherize El-Sayed in the state kind of shows you what their hand is that they have to play, which is to scare up more votes in their base and to bring out more people by kind of going with a base strategy.

Certainly understand that.

I don't think that that's going to have the success that I think it's intended to have for a couple of reasons.

They're trying to weaponize kind of Abdul El-Sayed being outside of the system.

I actually think in this cycle, in this moment, an anti-insider moment, I think it helps that El-Sayed is kind of a newer voice and someone who represents a newer generation of politics.

Also, I think he's going to bring out a different coalition of voters, some who were frankly turned off by Democrats in 2024 and in past cycles.

How do Republicans deal with that nationwide? Because they're taking what he believes in Michigan and those kinds of quotes from him and running with it nationwide against him.

What do you see coming around the corner? I mean, we're just weeks away from, as they referenced there, a potentially Democratic Congress.

Yeah, Antonia, I don't I'm very loathe to discuss this in part because I think everyone who's paying attention kind of understands the lack of seriousness of the proposal, the lack of seriousness of how Donald Trump, frankly, approaches his job.

I mean, he he does not approach the job of making the lives of the American people fundamentally better with any seriousness whatsoever.

So there is a part of me that really wants to fight back the urge to treat this with any seriousness, because I think that's the entire point.

There are three things that Donald Trump Republicans are going to do in the run up to the election.

One, they're going to come up with silly, empty promise ideas like this.

Two, they're going to rig the rules.

[laughs]

The absurdity of just what we're seeing, and I was listening earlier in the day to Luke Russert from The Weeknight there on the ground in Dallas and pointing out how ridiculous it is that, look, I, I think it's a topic worth talking about, but I have to admit I have some hesitance to treat it with any seriousness because it fundamentally lacks seriousness.

I mean, we know what the priority of this president is, is to help the wealthy and the well-connected, is to make sure that the people who got him elected, the people who bankrolled and who continue to bankroll his political operation continue to be, um, well taken care of.

So there, there's an absurdity to, um, the, the claims that I think belies what we're saying here.

Mm

... is critical to the political project.

Because if you don't believe your lying eyes and you believe the, the narrative version of the United States and of the world that Donald Trump tells, you would believe the fabulous things that you heard on stage last night.

You'll believe that you're gonna get a $5,000 check from Donald Trump.

like $850 million sitting.

Yeah, I'm going to see a lot of weird tomorrow.

And for, you know, that stadium is where the Dallas Mavericks play.

Let's just say I hope that they get more capacity this year than the RNC is going to get this week.

You know, it's interesting.

I think about what we're seeing, what's on display and the folly that's on display.

And I just I can't help but link it to everything else we're seeing in terms of the execution of this government, of Donald Trump and this agenda, the laziness, the naked corruption, the lack of attention to detail, the focus on himself over the people.

And that's why now they're competitive in places like Ohio, like North Carolina, like Mississippi.

after

three.

Yeah.

So he had people around him that would that would fight back on the worst impulses and prevent the worst possible thing from happening every single time.

And it distorted what the American people experienced in Trump won.

So that when they got an opportunity to have another shot at voting for Trump, They forgot about it.

And there's a lot of cultural reasons why that might be the case.

Joel, are you feeling like what you're seeing in terms of the response from Democratic candidates is sort of capturing this visceral, emotional rage from voters of all political persuasions?

Good to know

... no doubt that Ken Paxton is a significantly weaker Republican candidate.

And, you know, Nicole, as I was listening to your conversation with the previous guest, uh, the candidate there in Texas, and I'm just thinking about Texas, there are so many other interventions that Republicans could easily take.

Like, there are so many other rip cords they could pull.

They could go and try to turn out their voters.

They could go and, and, and actually make different decisions about their agenda.

I mean, there, there are a number of interventions that they could do, but they actu- They, they could choose a better candidate.

Mm.

Joel, when you are thinking about how Democrats should be using all of the chaos that is swirling around the Trump administration, swirling around our economy, and therefore swirling around the American people, is this the right message that they should be sending and leaning on?

Well, I think it's the reality.

So the reality makes it the right message.

I mean, the reality here is that Donald Trump's wars are killing the American economy, whether or not it is the hot war in Iran, whether or not it's this trade war that is the subject of this conversation we're having, whether it's his culture war that is going after experts and people who can help make sure that we ride out the economic storm that we're in right now.

His wars are killing the economy.

And I think Democrats have an opportunity to lift up that message and to give that the type of prominence with voters that it should have.

I mean, Eugene, you talked about Josh Turk there from Iowa.

Listen to this.

And I'm wondering what you've seen in the work you've done in these communities about where these voters are in the GOP coalition, the ones who came over in 24, are they still there?

Yeah, I want to have a bigger conversation about this and talk about the point around the 2024 story with the GOP.

But just more broadly, my read on black voters is black voters are among the most pragmatic of voters across the board, particularly within the Democratic coalition.

And I do think pragmatic sometimes gets coded as moderate.

um or as kind of um you know centrist and and sure there there there is certainly a part of the african-american voting block voting community that does tend to be a little bit more moderate but black voters actually have a pretty wide um you know understanding of what uh political realities can be and they're they're willing to get behind a lot of different folks in a lot of different places but they want proof of concept because they're voting for survival Right.

Whether they're voting in a Democratic primary, whether they're voting statewide or they're voting nationwide, they're voting for survival.

Black folks were particularly impacted by COVID-19.

What do you make of this recent shift and why is it getting under Donald Trump's skin so much?

When you look at what went down there, how do you assess what happened last night?

Well, what I see when I look at Wisconsin last night is that, um, the folks who were uncomfortable with Francesca Hong all finally had a candidate to unite around.

Um, before in the race there was the current lieutenant governor, there was the former lieutenant governor, Mandela Barnes, there were others in the race.

That field cleared out, and it became very clear that Crowley was the alternative to Hong.

Hong's numbers were always pretty consistent, in the high 30s, 40%, which is about where she landed last night.

It was that undecided vote and that, that vote that was dispersed among others that never quite came together.

Well, it came together behind David Crowley, and a lot of that support was in the African American community in big areas like Milwaukee, Madison, Racine, where you see big numbers of African American, uh, voters in Wisconsin stacking up.

How much energy do you think is in the Democratic Party right now on this progressive wing, that side of the party?

When you look at what went down there, how do you assess what happened last night?

Well, what I see when I look at Wisconsin last night is that the folks who were uncomfortable with Francesca Hong all finally had a candidate to unite around.

Before in the race, there was the current lieutenant governor.

There was the former lieutenant governor, Mandela Barnes.

There were others in the race.

That field cleared out and it became very clear that Crowley was the alternative to Hong.

Pong's numbers were always pretty consistent in the high 30s, 40%, which is about where she landed last night.

How much energy do you think is in the Democratic Party right now on this progressive wing, that side of the party?

When you look at what went down there, how do you assess what happened last night?

Well, what I see when I look at Wisconsin last night is that, um, the folks who were uncomfortable with Francesca Hong all finally had a candidate to unite around.

Um, before in the race there was the current lieutenant governor, there was the former lieutenant governor, Mandela Barnes, there were others in the race.

That field cleared out, and it became very clear that Crowley was the alternative to Hong.

Hong's numbers were always pretty consistent, in the high 30s, 40%, which is about where she landed last night.

It was that undecided vote and that, that vote that was dispersed among others that never quite came together.

Well, it came together behind David Crowley, and a lot of that support was in the African American community in big areas like Milwaukee, Madison, Racine, where you see big numbers of African American, uh, voters in Wisconsin stacking up.

How much energy do you think is in the Democratic Party right now on this progressive wing, that side of the party?

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Joel, do you think that that could be a mistake? Do you think that that might change after what we see happen tomorrow? What do you make of it?

What do you think, Joel, this does or doesn't do for Democrats in this conversation?

Well, I'll just kind of pick up on where Lani left off, which is, look, Donald Trump and Republicans made it very clear that retribution was a key part of their political offering this time around.

When Republicans swept back into power, when they got back in front of voters in 2024, they said that, you know, Donald Trump can be your retribution.

And I actually think that this is them living out part of that pledge to voters.

I think the bad news for them is that that's not what voters want.

Voters want them to focus on the economy.

Voters want them to focus on making their lives better.

Joel, what do you and Democratic lawmakers make of Beshear coming out and saying this? Do you think that was a good move? Do you think that Democratic lawmakers might want a level of discretion if they were in McConnell's shoes? Or what do you make?

Mm.

And there's less and less time for you to do the necessary persuasion work to actually win over voters.

I looked in particular at that Quinnipiac Poll, and look, obviously, he's unpopular with Democrats.

That's not a surprise.

He's gone down in one month from the June to the July Quinnipiac Poll almost 10 points with Republicans and I believe nine points with independents.

I mean, that's seismic.

Donald Trump's superpower has always been holding his Republican base with an iron fist.

Mm

You know, why don't you, um, speak up? Why don't you say something about ICE rushing into our cities and states in a militarized fashion?

Yeah, if you observe this and, you know, looking at that town hall, there's this, like, ritual flogging of Republican members of Congress that Donald Trump's been doing, frankly, since he's been on the public scene, since he's been president the first time and this time, and they'll, they will fetch and beg to whatever he tells them to do.

Voters are different.

[laughs] And it kind of seems like what he's doing right now is he's almost challenging Republican voters.

It's like he's daring them to not go along with the bit.

Um, he's doing it on every issue.

He's doing it on immigration by overreaching.

[laughs]

... um, especially with these incidents in Texas and Maine, um, very unfortunate, but, you know, they're, they, they're very clear-eyed about what they need to do here.

In America, law enforcement should not be meeting routine stops with deadly force.

Um, these are unnecessary escalations.

These are irresponsible actions by officers that don't seem to be trained.

Um, these are people who were recruited to be thugs on the street, and they're acting like thugs.

And I actually care less about Donald Trump and Markwayne Mullin having daylight between them.

I mean, that's great.

Yeah

And ultimately, shouldn't that judgment be for the voters and not the establishment?

Well, Vlad, it's somewhat appropriate that that's where Plattner went before announcing that he was suspending his campaign.

He kind of offered up very strong critique of the establishment, because his campaign itself was a commentary on the establishment and the power that he hoped to rebalance between working people and between those in power.

And so the fact that He offered this commentary, and this critique is not surprising, because this was essentially a proxy war about that.

I think where we go from here is Democrats trying to pick up the pieces.

And you hear a lot of commentary online about, well, how did we get here? Whose fault is this? Is it the fault of the people that identified Grant Plattner? Is it the fault of the establishment class, who did not offer up the type of candidates who would appropriately challenge a Plattner in the primary? And to me, I think there's medicine for everybody to take.

And I think what Democrats across the country and in Maine are doing right now is trying to learn the lessons of how we got here with Plattner and where do we go next and how do you refocus on trying to defeat Susan Collins in November.

So then how do you go about finding someone who could fulfill the obligations that he has made to the voters who are supporting him? In other words, finding someone who can be elected in that very same lane?

And yet it's an institution that very much prides itself on being not bent.

Yeah, I mean, it kind of makes you wonder if the provocative thought here is to make people understand that the institutions are fundamentally incapable of holding back Donald Trump and his impulses.

I mean, it kind of seems like what Trump wants to do here is put that administration, put that institution of the Senate on Front Street and say, you can't stop me regardless of what You want whatever what the vote count is, whatever what the public sentiment is.

I'm going to get my way.

What's also compelling to me about this, Ali, is it's what this is all for.

I mean, Donald Trump is doing this because he wants to restrict the number of eligible voters to hold him accountable this November.

If you talk to most experts who will look at the implementation of this, they would say even if he got his way on this, you couldn't even implement the elements of the Save America Act.

But I think one of the concerns that I've heard from Democrats is it's going to be a tough slog of a primary, and that makes it harder come a general.

How do you see this?

Well, it's interesting, and your previous guest talked about how this becomes politicized, and yeah, it does.

And you know, the person who politicizes it lives at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, 'cause everything is politics with Donald Trump.

This was an opportunity to bring together Americans from all over the country.

This is a cool idea, to have a state fair to show off all the different customs and traditions in different states.

But the fact that Trump could not allow for that to happen.

He's the one that invited all those musical acts, and then because of the politicization of the event, pushed those folks away.

Mm-hmm.