And you both, Joe and Darren, what else would you see is kind of the main mistakes people are making? Would you agree with that? Have you got any other kind of ways that...

Yeah, I feel like we might be overcomplicating this whole thing and like people are thinking this is way more complex than it actually is or certainly needs to be.

And I think I agree with a lot of Jamie's points in that we're often running before we can walk.

And maybe people posting on LinkedIn like the craziest shit because it gets the most attention actually is not that helpful.

So maybe we're the problem.

But I think there's such obvious good use cases which are like compliant and safe and save us time and drive better outcomes for candidates.

But they're not like the sexy use cases where you're hacking loads of tools together or, you know, building things from from scratch always.

No, it was a good point, but I don't

so there's no opportunity.

All right.

That, that's gonna create challenges.

Um, and red tails- Uh, like you said, red-tails, eagles, frugivorous, all of those guys, swains, they can all soar.

You know, that's what they do.

But the issue becomes to get them to soar when you want them to.

And red-tails, let's just talk about being out here, 'cause this is optimum soaring country.

Mm.

And how important do you think if you build this kind of side-by-side approach, how important do you think is, especially for recruiters or HR, personal branding then to really stay a kind of a human in front of the machine layer?

Yeah, I think like... personal branding in in kind of both senses of where you're going with that is super important in the in the recruiting sense and like the human to human connection incredible like incredibly important still if not more more important you know business life work for me is a team sport like I spent time doing a solopreneur business it wasn't necessarily for for me I like working with other people and I think that the majority not everyone but the If that's true, it's super important that you build connections with the people you're going to work with, right? So, you know, recruiters are that bridge between the company, the people working there and the candidates.

And it's their job to like sell them on the team and make them feel part of the team in order to want to join it.

So for me, that stays equally important.

And especially if the front end of a recruitment process becomes like homogenized because of agents and like sourcing and outreach and all of these parts look the same actually you can't really differentiate in that as much as you can now like there's a delta between great sources and and bad sources let's say if that playing field becomes a lot more even it becomes a lot more important in how you engage people when you when you speak to them and also how you help the rest of the business also do that so you're an enabler for the hiring managers for the interview teams to also like build those connections and convince people to to join your company so I think that part is super interesting.

And then personal branding in the slightly more external facing way and getting yourself, let's say, slightly more known and making more connections.

Again, I think this is incredibly important now and will only become more important.

And what would be the three tips that you would give to these HR leaders?

... that I think they need to lead through this transformation in a way that keeps their people engaged and keeps us moving forward as a business.

Yeah.

It's interesting, Jen, 'cause I think the, the list in that moment probably sounds exactly like the list if we had this conversation 10 years ago.

Um, and, and maybe amplifying some skills that would've been on that list but are moving up, and there's a couple that I would call out.

One is empathy.

If, if, if you're looking across an organization right now and not appreciating the anxiety that the change is creating on your organization, and you're not appreciating what that anxiety means to human performance and what it means to how people show up at home and how they show up at work, and you're not connecting those dots, I think you're failing the people that you're leading.

It is incredibly important to be s- to be looking at your leadership role through a mirror of empathy for the people that you lead.

... chief AI officer.

For this episode, I talked to Sam and his bandmate Joe Atkinson about the title track from People Watching and the long journey that it took to get made from Sam's kitchen to the Hollywood Hills to Abbey Road.

[upbeat music] I people watch on the way back home.

Everybody on the treadmill running.

Under the billboards out of the heat.

Somebody's dance on the street tonight.

Oh, I can't stop running.

I see the whole town fall.

I'm Sam Fender.