And I think the way that he derived the idea of modernity is from the Enlightenment.

I think today I feel like coming back together among the three of us, it really pulls my focus back to this image.

which is also a concept, right, of lawachurabu, like the sea where land is out of sight.

I arrived at this image through the research of Professor Jan Razek, and he was the one who was writing about this in his essay.

If I'm not mistaken, the title is The Prison and the Sea.

And I think the inspiration for this came from looking at land as this symbol of fixity, of definition.

It's interesting for me now hearing both of you speaking about modernities, like from your respective research trajectories, because to me, Lao Jerebu is actually a proposition for the postmodern, in the sense that What is on land, you know, everything is so structured and we are building on this firm ground, our nation states with our borders.

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