That doesn't work.

What we're finding is that the folks who do use these processes are having great success with it.

The challenge is in getting, is in overcoming the fear factor of having real performance data, where there's a great deal of comfort in having kind of centralized control over the information and a centralized response.

And that comfort, I think, is a real blocker to actually getting the truth.

And, you know, like the real, I think, resistance.

Leaders are worried that people aren't going to like their scores and that people are going to respond negatively.

And in our experience, that's not true at all.

Like, how do you how do you work to translate that in those in the in the output reports to leadership?

Yeah

... uh, for what it started as sort of a, a haunted house movie essentially.

But there are, you know, the second movie introduces time travel, and the third movie introduces you to this idea that, like, it's not just the Lamberts that are travelers.

There's, you know, Stephanie's character.

Um, and then the fourth movie introduces you to, like, the idea that Lin can show the future to, to her dad in, in this one scene.

Uh, and, and, and that there's these other demons, like the, you know, Key Face demon, who sort of control, uh, things in The Further, like that prison.

Um, so it felt, it felt to me like every, uh, chapter introduced new ideas.

[laughs]

[laughs]

... to just have ideas as you're making this one of, like, "Okay, this is where I wanna take it next." But we'll see what happens.

I mean, hopefully fans love this one as much as I enjoyed making it, you know? And that'll sort of tell us if there's an appetite for another, another Insidious movie.

I hope there is because I think The Further is, is wide-reaching.

It's, it can be anywhere.

It can be any characters, and there's so much more to explore there.

Yeah.

But I feel that way about every movie I've made, every, you know, my TV shows, everything.

And there's a twist to this installment, very different from the last Step 5 that we've seen,

I mean, look, there's been five movies before this that have explored the further in a big way, different entities, different demons, and also sort of closed out the Lambert storyline with Josh and Dalton.

And I felt as a fan, and I'm someone who's been a fan of this franchise from the beginning, I felt like I was ready for a new chapter.

I was ready for something new.

you know, I didn't want to see the same types of scares again because, and it's also just like hard to top the ones that have come in the previous movies, right? And so it came out of this, the love of the franchise and also knowing like there's other travelers out there in the world like Josh and Dalton, right? And so what else, what other abilities might people have? And we sort of ran with that and it opened up this whole world for us of like Gemma and her unique abilities, right?

There's always something.

Yeah, I mean, if you want the real answer, I feel no satisfaction from that because I'm not...

There's so much more I would always keep doing, but I feel that way about every movie I've made, my TV shows, everything.

And you've been a longtime executive leader yourself, so currently, um, the founder and CEO of The Infin, which we're gonna talk about here in just a little bit, uh, but you've had other executive roles, and as a longtime leader, what has surprised you most about gaining broader organizational feedback?

It, it has to do with the engagement and the incentive shift, I think is one of the biggest surprises that I look back on is, is, you know, kind of a happy accident, right? Where, you know, in a centralized evaluation system where you have a salary band and you have a, you know, a, a very standardized job description, and you have certain metrics that you have to hit, the way that you gain value is just by pushing on those levers.

And in a decentralized system, when everyone is judging everyone else, and, and one more comment on the, on the centralized system is that it also kind of promotes local optimization, where it's like, well, I gain favor by doing these things, and so I'm gonna push those as hard as I can, whether or not it's good for the broader organization or whether or not it creates conflict elsewhere on the team.

And in a decentralized system, the way that you gain value is by serving your teams in whatever capacity that looks like.

Another way to think about it is it's kind of a dependency map.

It's like who is depending on you for the work that you're producing to drive their own outcomes? And the way that you become valuable is by being dependent upon and, and serving people in a, you know, in a, in a human way that kind of cascades across the organization- Rather than by keeping your motivation kind of purely self-interested, and that kind of the best way to serve yourself in a decentralized organization is through serving others.

And, you know, I think that that was one of the core lessons that I learned early on that wasn't really anticipated, was like, well, people's incentives changed.

Give us kinda the, the overview.

And what was that first step? Was it around the way you even think about positions and what people are doing, or was it other signals to measure performance?

We're all familiar with the typical or like the kind...

We'll call it the classic talent management model, which is an HR review, which is here's the 10 criteria, here's the scale of one to five, and that's supposed to capture everything that's happening.

And I think we've all had our frustrations with that type of process, but it was the best we had.

But one of the things that I really began to question was that somebody has to actually establish that metric, that rubric, that criteria that people are gonna get measured.

But other people, like a lot of things that matter to people aren't captured in that.

They're absent.

I've not met my target, but the world changed." Does this approach, I guess I'm wondering, you know, does it actually allow businesses to be able to smooth that out and create less of that anxiety and the flight risk that might come with that more rigid performance?

Yeah, so as you get a better estimate of an individual's performance, what opportunities does that open up?

Yeah, I mean, lots, right? So the information that flows through this network are observations, right? People see things about their colleagues, both good and bad, and that information can be packaged up and provided to each person.

It's like, you know, people get much more feedback about their own performance in a real time way to help them elevate and carry forward their careers.

While at the same time, you have some system level intelligence that allows you to kind of have a bird's eye view of where the areas of intervention may be required and the areas that are doing really well and may have more investment opportunity from the organizational perspective.

I can share a quick story.

We built this kind of a simple prototype when I was running this real estate business.

And the first thing that stood out in the data was two underperforming managers in the field that we didn't know about.

What do you think the big wins are that you've had with this system?