You don't have to do the mental gymnastics you know from here.

Exactly.

And I feel one thing.

aspect that I kind of contemplate on even now, because we even spoke, touched on it offline about being comfortable.

And there's something really uncomfortable about being comfortable.

And I just find that through the exploration of this work and, you know, my greatest accelerations have come in a space of stepping into the fire.

And I've heard you turn that term and even stepping into, well, I'm going to run a workshop this weekend.

Mind-altering drugs, pharmaceutical drugs.

Now, what about your understanding of your capacity of your your own gifts like what you're bringing to retreats and workshops like you're you know the knowledge is there right and we can hear it and this wisdom it's not just it's deep wisdom that is it's quite a you know it hits people and you know exactly how to hit the person where they're at which is really interesting but it's what about the the other aspect of what you're doing because i know it's not just it's not just words when they land there's this energy coming from you so how what is your understanding of how that developed for you and your relationship to energy

Yeah, and that continues to develop.

And my own mission, I've had a hard time being vocal about it in some ways, and I kind of hide behind the podcast.

I hide behind the retreats.

So there's still a part of me that's struggling to be seen, to be honest with you, which I've been claiming more and more and just, oh, fuck it.

I'll just, you know, I've got to get to the point because I'm getting pushed in that direction anyway.

But, yeah, so my understanding is – As I've continued to work on myself, I'm working on myself as basically surrendering to the moment more and more.

What, what is your vision of 3D and what does that look like? I'm sorry, 5D.

Where is, will this category go in, in the next three to five years, and where, where do you want the category to go actually next years?

Uh, I think for us, when we sit down with the founders, what's interesting is obviously the ability for brands to scale internationally.

You know, I think for Pentire in particular, that was a key growth lever that needed to happen.

Otherwise, we'd see, you know, ten, twenty percent growth, which is not exactly where we wanna be.

So, um, and now we're starting to get some data, and you're, you're gonna have Nick speaking later on, and he was much more better placed to tell you about the US landscape for non-alc.

But it's interesting how quickly it's evolving.

Um, recently we've got, you know, buyers at Whole Foods and some of the other big grocers that are dedicating more and more shelf space to non-alc, and it, and it's starting to make sense because you walk into some of these stores and your non-alc spirits are in one place and your non-alc beers are here and, and none of it's really kind of categorized and merchandised in the right way.

Don't be racist.

[laughs]

So yeah, we did a bit of that, and that was really fun and needed.

And I think we just tried to educate ourselves.

We also realized, you know, neither of us went to university.

Howard got kicked out of college halfway through for touring too much, so we just missed out on a bunch of, you know, education.

So did a lot of reading, a lot of podcasts, and then work began on the album, yeah, start to mid 2018, I'd say.

Maybe end of 2017, just a bit.

Just so you get the texture