Professor Guy Lamme, a criminologist at the Stellenbosch University, has been telling my colleague, Jewel Kirungi, why there are so many illegal guns in South Africa

AfricaWell, they come from various sources.

So of course, firearms, you know, are quite resilient technology so that they can remain serviceable for decades if they're well-maintained.

So most guns that are used in the commission of crime are handguns, so these are revolvers or, or pistols.

Um, and these handguns would've ultimately been sourced from legal owners, so through loss and theft.

So we have anywhere between 6 and 9,000 firearms that are lost or stolen in relation to legal owners.

Then, of course, some of the weapons are sourced from private security companies.

Professor Lamb, what challenges does the government face in addressing this issue? I mean, it's been there recurring for the past few months.

Are there targets here or are they just seeking to terrorize?

Well, it depends on each particular case.

So the one that's received quite a considerable amount of international and local attention is the one that's taken place in Cottonville, which is outside of Johannesburg.

And this is an area which is close to abandoned mining, gold mining areas.

So these were mined by big gold mines.

And they were subsequently abandoned because they were no longer profitable for those companies.

But then there's still gold in these areas.

So is there a solution?

Are there targets here or are they just seeking to terrorize?

Well, it depends on each particular case.

So the one that's received quite a considerable amount of international and local attention is the one that's taken place in Cottonville.

which is outside of Johannesburg.

And this is an area which is close to abandoned mining, gold mining areas.

So these were mined by big gold mines way in the day, and they were subsequently abandoned because they were no longer profitable for those companies.

But then there's still gold in these areas.

So is there a solution?

And most notably, he now is at Khosi Mampuru, a correctional center facility that is a maximum security prison because it is, amongst other things, feared he may try to escape.

I mean, yes, this is a... kind of a really incredible development.

And of course, what he has been charged with, what he's been accused for, what he's been arrested for, has nothing to do actually with what's happening in the Makhlanga Commission, because the Makhlanga Commission was set up to deal with allegations of organized crime, infiltration of the kind of top brass of the police, particularly within Gauteng, mainly Akrolene, but also within KwaZulu-Natal.

And then, of course, political interference.

So this has got nothing to do with that.

And that kind of process is unfolding.

But of course, the fact that he's now being charged around these particular offenses does undermine a lot of the testimony that he provided to the commission that they needed to consider.

He himself faced some pressure this week as devices were seized from his house following a court order.

And most notably, he now is at Khosi Mampuru, a correctional center facility that is a maximum security prison because it is, amongst other things, feared he may try to escape.

I mean, yes, this is a... kind of a really incredible development.

And of course, what he has been charged with, what he's been accused for, what he's been arrested for, has nothing to do actually with what's happening in the Makhlanga Commission, because the Makhlanga Commission was set up to deal with allegations of organized crime, infiltration of the kind of top brass of the police, particularly within Gauteng, mainly Akrolene, but also within KwaZulu-Natal.

And then, of course, political interference.

So this has got nothing to do with that.

And that kind of process is unfolding.

But of course, the fact that he's now being charged around these particular offenses does undermine a lot of the testimony that he provided to the commission that they needed to consider.

He himself faced some pressure this week as devices were seized from his house following a court order.

to interrupt, Guy, but I think what I was trying to establish, if there is evidence as to how many housebreaking cases that are reported to police are cleared via goods being returned by convictions being achieved, because if those stats are very low, then the lack of confidence is justified.

Yeah, no, that's a fair question.

I mean, the situation is that very few cases that are reported to the police involving housebreakers actually end up in court.

So the perpetrators may get caught, but often those we don't have information that public demand about it.

The National Prosecuting Authority does not publish information about that.

But generally, from what I know, speaking to police, looking at the data that is available is you know the kind of going to court and convictions are very low so from the public's point of view reporting the matter to the police is largely driven by insurance consideration so if you are insured and the value of the goods is high and you want them replaced you report it but i think for many south africans that surround this as an additional you know administrative task needs to be undertaken in a sort of view that it you know it's unlikely to achieve results um whereas with I was listening.

I was just agreeing with you.

Okay.

How then do you suggest we continue amplifying the aspects of the relationship between the City of Cape Town and the SAPS continue working for the benefit of people of Cape Town? Because we know that many of particularly resource-related decisions are made at head office, even though there might be a misunderstanding of what the immediate needs of the West and Cape are.

Well, I mean, we have this cooperation agreement in place and the relationship certainly between the city and the leadership of the provincial SAPs have improved.

And so the important thing is for them to continue implementing what they've agreed upon and sort of agreed upon how resources will be used, where those resources will go.

So, for example, the city has priority areas.

It's focusing on particularly the high crime areas.

And there's sort of agreement with SAPS to work with them on that agreement around priority areas, particularly in relation to gang and extortion related violence.

So those are, you know, it should continue as before and keep the good relationship going because it is a delicate relationship and it has broken down in the past.

How do we rescue SAPS nationally, do you think?