What's the process? Because, as you say, it's not something I got taught at school, I can promise you.

Yeah, yeah.

So I think the first start of the process is to acknowledge and remember that this person, that we're on the same team and that we're not here to fight one another.

And so it's challenging if we have different perspectives and we feel, particularly if there's a history in the relationship of feeling unheard, then one of the most common response to that is for an often – I was going to speak to this earlier about when you're talking about men who are being latent.

So I might just kind of circle around in order to answer this question.

In terms of Aaron's right, the men that you work with individually, it's often anger.

But when couples come to us, quite often – not always, but there's more of a tendency for the man to be a bit latent and it's often the woman who is – leading the, or his initiator coming to work with us.

There's a shadow side to it and I was raised with that, that there was aspects of my masculinity that were shamed and made wrong and I've had to reclaim that.