How important was it? The fact that you saw people obviously starting with your dad, but then these other greats that you were able to study from, tell me about that idea for, for anyone who picks up your book in terms of wanting to be a storyteller or improve their storytelling, this idea of like, it's good to look at the best storytellers for you to become a better storyteller.

It's funny because for years when people asked me how did I become a good enough writer to be one of the 30 writers in the entire world for Sports Illustrated, right? When people had asked me, you're in elite company as a journalist, as a writer, how did you do that? And my answer was always really simple.

I started early reading good writing.

And I didn't just read it for enjoyment.

I read it to dissect it.

I would ask myself when I read something that was really well done, I wonder what inspired that person, the writer, to use that language.

I wonder what question they asked to elicit that answer.

Unpack that one a little bit for me.

So Don, when did you first realize you wanted to be a speaker? And when did you realize you needed some help? And Fripp was the one.

So I was at Sports Illustrated as a senior writer and associate editor was my title, but there are only 30 senior writers at Sports Illustrated in the whole world.

And so it's a really amazing job, great opportunity.

And over the last few years of the 12 years I was there, they actually had a speaker's bureau.

And as you might imagine, most writers are writers for a reason.

They don't want to be speakers.

The idea of actually trying to take content and deliver it in front of a group of people that will sit in judgment of you, it's a lot easier to be a writer and never actually listen to people who, because you're never sitting next to somebody that's actually reading your work, very seldom.

But going from that to presenting and speaking on the stage, telling stories differently, what were some of the breakthroughs you had along the way?

Yeah.

Now, the reason I say that phrase is because for a moment, I understand the psychology of storytelling.

I understand how my words can affect other people, a good storyteller's words can affect other people.

And by just simply saying the words, "I don't know what it looked like at your house growing up," and I pause, which gives you a second to think about Thanksgiving at your house growing up, which means from there forward, we're in the story together, right? We're, we're actually...

It is not me telling about my Thanksgiving.

It's us talking about our ex- our Thanksgiving in, in different, in different households.

And so there, there are these...

Yep.

You actually beat him.

Yeah, it was an old man's basketball camp that Jordan invited me to.

It was 100 guys.

But on the third day of the camp, Jordan walked out.

He says, today I'm going to let 20 of you go one-on-one with the greatest player of all time, which is awesome, right? Tap yourself on the chest.

Call yourself the greatest and no one argues.

He says, the rules are very simple.

We're going to buy the book.

I mean, that's, I mean, that proves your point, doesn't it? I mean, that's what people connected with.

And it is, every great story is human, right? That's first and foremost.

The second of the universal truths is that it is the story behind the story that is the story.

You know, many people think I can, I'm gonna tell you my story about my life.

And often it's very linear.

But it's the things that made that happen That absolutely, that's the real story.

The story is what is, what's behind the curtain.

Are there like three or four core stories that every business needs to have and be able to tell kind of at the drop of a hat?

[laughs]

"So, but, but I pat everybody on the back." But his whole model of leadership was this concept that you need to have a series of standards that you will hold everyone to.

Your best player, your worst player, everyone abides by these standards.

And sometimes your best players will push that envelope and try to see, "Do you really mean that for me? I'm the best player." He had Bill Walton, right? One of the greatest centers of all time.

Bill Walton liked to have hair that was a little longer than everybody else.

It was the '70s when he was there.

And so one day at, for Bill's senior year, he was the two-time National Player of the Year.

How did he help you be a better husband?

[chuckles]

As a large organization, we were just profitable, uh, by that.

She said, "But we celebrated like crazy.

Like, we went up and down the aisles, and everybody was high-fiving," 'cause you know what? We, we weren't in the red.

We were, we were, we were turning a corner and, and suddenly that celebration played into the belief and mindset.

Like, you know what? We are moving in the right direction.

We are, uh, doing the right thing.

How do we prepare for that?

That's great.

I keep...

And I say, "By the way, for the next six minutes, you get to wear these.

Everybody else has to listen.

You can, you can block me out." But, uh, I'm sitting there and I'm watching the Super Bowl, and as you know, Atlanta's up twenty-eight to three, middle of the third quarter, late in the third quarter.

The prognosticators had, had Atlanta with a ninety-nine point six percent chance of winning, right, at that stage.

Because never in the history of the Super Bowl had any team come back from more than fifteen points down.

Okay, that's where Perry and I live at, okay? [chuckles]