How do we do it?

Over a long period of time, by building alternative alliances, I would argue moving closer to Europe, moving closer to countries that aren't the United States.

I think, look...

Look, we can all understand why the UK-US relationship is so close.

It's historic.

It was a former colony.

You know, you've got the relationship during the First and Second World War.

Carney and the intervention he's made on behalf of Canada? Or do you want us to go even further? Do you want Labour to have a Pedro Sanchez, the leader in Spain, who's pivoted away from Atlanticism, taking a very independent position? Where are you saying this end to Atlanticism takes us?

Right

...

if you are genuinely going to challenge the power of vested interests who have done very well, thank you very much, over the last 50 years under neoliberalism, then they are gonna fight back, and they're gonna build their own alliances.

They already have, in many ways, many of them within our class.

So you're going to have to kind of pursue policies as well, which might not seem logical, but which are also building those alliances.

And I think it really was just to say, it's not gonna be easy.

If you're gonna dismantle something as powerful as this, then to do so, it- it's not just gonna be a kind of a, a charge at it.

[laughs]

Um, you know, what's, what's different?

Well, the answer, the answer to ki- well, the, the answer to, to Farage, to, to Faragist kind of Powellism or Thatcherism, if you want, on steroids, I- is not kind of a slightly weakened, watered-down version of it.

It just isn't.

Just, just as it's not the answer for a kind of slightly weaker watered-down version of what they're calling for immigration and asylum.

It doesn't work.

It doesn't appease anyone, and it doesn't fit to fix the problems that he is feeding off of, you know? And, and that's what the public, whether they can articulate it, everyone I speak to on doorstep can articulate that or not, that's increasingly what they understand.

That, that, the, the, what they see coming, Labour isn't able, doesn't have a story to tell about how it's countering that.

if you are to believe the, the, the opinion polls.