The challenge of giving a different spin on a child kidnapped ransom movie, how tough was that?

that?You know, I don't, I kind of, um, it, it would be, it would be tough if, if I felt like that was the story, right? But my view is that, you know, I've always kind of taken this approach, is that, like, certain genres and genre conventions are really good ways to kind of invite the audience into the movie.

They're a shorthand to kind of communicate, "Hey, look, here's a movie about, you know, uh, people that are robbing banks, or some hostages that are taken, you know, overseas or something." And, and then, you know, when you, when you've developed that sort of plot, that front brain engagement and that urgency, you, you can kind of s- sneak in and populate the movie [clears throat] with the thematic stuff that I think is more interesting.

There's only so many sort of plots and devices, and within genres you can ...

Like, I- genres are quite helpful.

They, they, it doesn't mean it has to be obvious, but it does mean it gives the audience a sort of a context, and they'll have conventions.

You can hew to the conventions, you can subvert the conventions.

How has the role of the leading man changed over the last 20, 30 years?

The challenge of giving a different spin on a child kidnapped ransom movie, how tough was that?

You know, I don't, I kind of, um...

It, it would be, it would be tough if, if I felt like that was the story, right? But my view is that, you know, I've always kind of taken this approach, is that, like, certain genres and genre conventions are really good ways to kind of invite the audience into the movie.

They're a shorthand to kind of communicate, "Hey, look, here's a movie about, you know, uh, uh, people that are robbing banks," or some hostages that are taken, you know, overseas or something.

And, and then, you know, when you, when you've developed that sort of plot, that front brain engagement and that urgency, you, you can kind of s- sneak in and populate the movie [laughs] with the thematic stuff that I think is more interesting.

There's only so many sort of plots and devices, and within genres you can- Like I, genres are quite helpful.

They, they...

How has the role of the leading man changed over the last 20, 30 years?

I need some pointers, but how was that, um, doing that?

Look, I mean, it was great.

I- one of the things I think is, like, anytime you're gonna make a movie, first of all, the only way that this movie is gonna work and connect with people is c- it, it has to feel [clears throat] real, right? Like, absolutely real.

And so for me, you know, we have these characters, all these different backgrounds and circumstances.

I really...

it wasn't just about the right actors, it was about, like, I needed collaborators, co-writers, like, you know, Luis and Adriana basically wrote all their scenes.

You know, Kerry and I really wrote together this marriage stuff.

Was Matt Damon supposed to be the lead at first, and you were director?

After doing this for so many years, have you found that the harder part isn't separating the two jobs, but somehow making the actor in you forget everything the director in you knows?

The trick of it is that actually when you're acting in it, it's the same as acting in anything.

And any actor has a sort of general sense of how a scene is flowing and going.

And I'm a big believer in actors and their instincts.

And often... you know, there'll be a kind of consensus, especially of a group.

Sometimes you're watching an actor's coverage and you can sort of pay a little bit closer attention to it.

But in this movie, we had everybody acting all the time.

You

This is an organization that you helped found, what, 16 years ago?

Yeah, 16 years ago.

Basically, it's...

the idea was sort of to, like, approach philanthropy from a model of the people that live in the country, understand their community, know what they're doing, and often just don't have access to the large sort of donor community, and they don't have a 501c3 and all that stuff, but it was a place that was really ravaged by a lot of war and disruption, and I traveled there and thought, like, rather than sort of taking the approach of, like, we know what to do, and we'll come in and tell you, and also we'll just pay a bunch of Americans or Europeans to go down and, like, do their summer down there and leave.

They try to create some sort of lasting value.

Worked with, like, you know, women who are victims of, like, gender-based violence and, you know, health, maternal health, water, clean water.

Although Matt kind of stole that one from me.

One

Right.

And then, um, mm, I looked around and, and it, I just as a director started to really understand and value the people on the crew who made such a significant difference to the quality of what you're doing, both in terms of speed and in terms of the environment and the way in which you're able to perform it.

I'm a big believer that, that the performance really ultimately is what, what draws people in and performance and the writing.

And so w- uh, came up with this idea, never thinking anyone would ever actually fund us, uh, to do a movie studio that was predicated on, um, two things.

Basically i- sh- allowing the crew and the, the artist, being the writer, I mean, and I consider the crew the artist, which is the whole group, actors, directors, writers, so on-

I'm trying to, I'm trying to f-see if my brain heard it right.

We'll be right back.

[gentle music] Let's talk about the Idaho effect.

I didn't know you were a Scandal super fan, like super fan.

I'm a super fan of the show, and I'm really a super fan of Kerry.

I got to know her a little bit.

Uh, I'd known her for a while, 'cause you kind of know folks, you know? See them around.

I always really liked Kerry.

And then during the strikes a few years ago, you know, there were a bunch of actors that sort of were involved in trying to m- m- make things work, and Kerry was one of these people where I watched her go from like room to room-

[laughs]

You know what I think? Honestly, I think that the collective bar for politics, because of the way that sort of the political world has evolved, has gotten so low that, um, there's this kind of like- Uh, you know, people are just sort of looking for, like, just somebody shoot me straight.

Yeah.

And so when I got successful, I just did one movie after another, as fast as I could, scared that it was gonna go away.

And ironically, it kind of became a self-fulfilling prophecy, because I had a couple of movies in a row that just bombed.

And all of a sudden, like, I, I wasn't cool.

Nobody wanted to see my movies, and I kinda couldn't get a job.

And what I experienced was, like, all these people who I really thought, whether it was like studio heads or other cool people, whatever it was, who I thought were my friends, who I tal- you know, like, didn't wanna talk to me.

Wouldn't return my calls.

Right.

How are you doing? How are you feeling?

It's a ...

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting.

It is, it's a big year of life, right? Like to have both your ...

My parents, my brother, and my mo- our parents died, uh, like just two months apart.

Uh, April, beginning of April and beginning of June.

That's a lot, man.

Yeah

are not

like that.

I just don't want to talk about, frankly, people.

But, you know, but it's definitely showed me that you got to if you don't.

deal with it, you don't fix, like, it's just not going to happen.

I remember when my grandmother died, I was young, she was alcoholic, and I always thought when I was young, oh, eventually she'll kind of quit drinking.

Eventually the happy ending will happen.

Well, good

How are you doing? How are you feeling? Yeah, I mean, it's

interesting.

It is, it's a big year of life, right? Like, to have both your, my parents...

My brother and our parents died just two months apart, beginning of April and beginning of June.

That's a lot, man.

You know, it's a lot to, and it just brings up all these, I mean, you're a child, how you were raised, you see things differently, appreciate your parents in different ways.

And you think about your own mortality and your own life and your own children and what you want to do with it.

like

How are you doing? How are you feeling?

It's, yeah, I mean, it's interesting.

It is, it's a big year of life, right? Like, to have both your...

my parents, my brother and my mo- our parents died, uh, like, just two months apart, April, beginning of April and beginning of June.

That's a lot, man.

You know, it's, it's a lot to, um- And it just brings up all these.

I mean, your childhood, how you were raised.

Yeah

How are you doing? How are you feeling?

It's...

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting.

It is, it's a big year of life, right? Like, to have both your...

My parents, my brother and my mo- our parents died, uh, like, just two months apart, April, beginning of April and beginning of June.

That's a lot, man.

You know, it's, it's a lot to, um...

Yeah

It's good.

I did have a lot of help with, uh, Luis and Adriana.

Like, after every scene, I would say to Luis, "How was I? Was that good?" He was like, "Well, it's bad in the right way."

If I say anything wrong, you need to correct me."

He was like, "My goal for you is that actually in Spanish-speaking countries, they can understand you."

So I sat down and caught up with both of them about what we can expect from Animals.

[dramatic music] A very wise person once told me that in a crisis we discover who we are and what's important to us.

Sometimes justice and the letter of the law are exactly aligned.

Sometimes it requires us to make very difficult, very human decisions.

We wouldn't let him.

Oh, man, th- that would've been a great disaster.

You know, and even with all the hats that you mentioned, like, my approach is I feel like this is a film by a really quite a big and talented group of people.

Kerry is, i- is really essentially, like, a, a co-director.

you.

Um...

And I don't think there was the option for Lewis to really be in the class.

He was who he was, right? And there was one teacher who I knew was gay.

But in retrospect, you know, 2,600 kids, it's probably likely that more than one...

There were a few, uh-huh.

So, but, like, it wasn't a place where anybody was comfortable being out, you know? The school, the high school that I went to, I started that high school, I guess, in 1986.

Also, you hung out in my glam room all the time because we had good music.

Okay.

And then I walk to whatever gas station I can find.

buy a carton of cigarettes and then while i'm there i postmates my duncan order so i wait there when i get home have a sip of duncan fall back asleep wake up sip a duncan fall back asleep that goes on anywhere from 45 minutes to three hours depends on how much coffee i'm having and then uh i usually go outside after that and look wistfully out and then there's usually paparazzi there That can be anywhere.

That can be the beach.

That can be the car.

I just stand there with this look in my face.

Or this

Oh, I love

Not really

Try to, like, suck up to the guy and everything, and then, uh, you know, just, just, you know, in so much admiration of him.

And when we got ahold of this story, you know, knew him well enough basically just to call him up and go, "Hey, look, like, I got ahold of this script.

I'd like to make the movie, but I have too much respect for you and what you mean.

Like, I'm not gonna do anything that you're not down with.

So if you wanna give me a couple hours, sit down and tell me, like, what's real, what's not, and what you care about," you know? Uh, and he, he was like, "All right, cool.

Come out to my golf course."

Yeah

How did you guys get that deal set up? Well, that's an extension of,

like, there were these strikes, right? And there was a lot of discussion about the way residuals used to work for actors.

And streaming was new, and they had this kind of buyout model, sort of one-size-fits-all.

And as the business sort of shifts and evolves, and as it has throughout its history, obviously the strikes are an example of some of the tensions that arise around, are we being paid fairly or not? So during that time, we had been involved kind of informally at trying to put together a sort of residual schedule for streaming movies.

And that wasn't ultimately what was finally adopted, but the experience of doing that was illustrative and what we've always believed in and what we did for example with air and all of our movies we've done crew bonus we've tried to build incentive systems for casting crew that have to do with um aligning everybody and saying look we've got this goals we if we finish early or under budget like Great.

You should also benefit from that.

And we want to find a way to go, if the movie works, you should benefit from that.

And this is obviously a way less sexy version of it, but I think more important, especially for you guys helping your fellow actors, crew, all these people.

... expertise for him.

Yeah, we've been spending time looking at this.

Like, my belief is, it's sort of like, what's gonna happen with electricity? Well, a lot of shit's gonna happen with electricity.

Some of it's gonna be good, some of it's gonna change stuff, some of it's gonna be like, [chuckles] you know, is gonna be, you know, shit that kills a bunch of people.

Like, it's, it's, it's opening a door that you can't, um, you know, say, well, talk about in a kind of a blanket way.

But I think with what I see is, like, for example, if you try to get ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini to write you something, it's really shitty.

And it's shitty because by its nature, it goes to the mean, to the average, and it's, and it's not reliable, and it's...

We, we were speculating, but-

[laughing]

[laughing] We- Joe...

It's like, we like, Narc has always been a favorite movie of ours.

I feel like Joe really understands, uh, these men and, and what this life is like.

And, and one of the things I was really- I thought was really interesting, it's just about, like, people who do a really hard job, um, where, you know, it's dangerous, and they're subject to a lot of temptation, and sometimes, like, hostility, and, and, you know, it's tough.

And that the idea that there's a lot of integrity in finishing the day and doing your job, I thought was just a beautiful movie, and also one that would be really interesting to watch.

And I like the idea...

Phew!

[inhales] Take us back to that time and, and what that meant.

[exhales] You know, it's like, um, I hadn't, you know, like, no idea.

That it was so close to a time where we were just trying to get a movie made to be in it so that we could skip, like, just, you know, getting blocked by the casting director.

Um, and we thought, "Okay, if we can get a real, like, a VHS" [chuckles]...

This is back, you know, a VHS tape that has some performances on it that we're proud of, like, maybe we can jumpstart our acting careers.

And, you know, the year before those Oscars, I was, like, in, you know, in Boston, in an apartment, you know, in a three-bedroom, watching the Oscars on TV.

And, you know, like I always had, and to, to go and be there the next year was really, like, uh, you know-

What do you say to the people that say Hollywood is dead, it's too expensive to make movies out here?

Did you meet the, uh, foreign service workers? The, the, the people that were in the embassy in Iran, did you meet with them? Are they alive, are they-

I did.

There are five of the six, uh, what we called the house guests who were there, who were the diplomats, w- or, who were, who, the, the family members of Chambers.

The, the guy who Alan Arkin played.

Obviously my character I worked with very closely.

So we had this whole nucleus of people who worked with us and helped, uh, uh, us keep it real, and also who landed to me the fact that this really is, in part, a tribute to the dangers that our diplomats face.

Sure.

Our foreign service people face, our clandestine service face, without any, you know, hope for recognition.

Yes.

... fight or flight reflexes.

But the greatest moment of that experience was he was like, after we played, you know, he had me running around.

I'm, you know, he threw me the ball and, and it was amazing, right? It was like a, like, I felt like a ten-year-old kid.

He's like, "Okay, come here." And I get to him and he's like, "It's the Super Bowl, fourth quarter.

We have 23 seconds."

All right.

"Look, look, I'm gonna get it to you in the end zone." I mean, and it's like when they, uh, you look, it felt like this is exactly what he looks like when it really is, the Su-, well, you know what I mean? Like, and he's one of those guys going back to that thing.

Yes.

...

it was great.

I really felt like that was the most important thing, to, to bring that humanity out because yeah, sometimes if you have a more, like, neutral affect, people might just assume, okay, well, they're very serious, or there's not, you know, there's not as much going on, or they have the same feelings and I have not found that at all to be true.

It's just a, a slightly different way of, of seeing the world and approaching it, and I really wanted to, to bring that to this role, both 'cause I thought, you know, it hadn't really been done in that way, and, and because I just came to, to love, you know, in effect, this, this, this character through the people that I knew.

So it's like, th- when I...

By the time I got into this one, I was like, no, no, no, I really understand this guy now.

Yeah.