Jun 14, 2026 · 1 hr 4 min · 15 segments
In this episode, Chris is joined by UK-based sex and relationship therapist and Certified DST Therapist Rhian Kivits. Together they explore the often-overlooked experiences of betrayed partners…
Rhian KivitsGuestChris JonesHostThere's something really, uh, amazing about hearing you describe that journey because when I speak to many betrayed partners through this lens, they describe this experience of, um, almost having this, uh, internal knowledge, internal experience of something, but not having the language for it.
They hear Omar talking or, or maybe even my podcast now, and it's like, "That's the thing.
That's, that's what I've been feeling and experiencing internally, and that validates it." And so it's really interesting to hear you describing almost, like, a similar experience from a clinician perspective.
You could tell something was missing, and then once you heard the words for it, it, it kind of slotted into place.
And so as a couple therapist, I would often meet couples who had perhaps been in therapy initially together, and the therapy had broken down and failed.
And I would hear these stories of how traditional couple therapy was pushing these couples to make decisions about their relationships really quickly, um, pushing partners to forgive really quickly, and pushing for repair, and also how traditional couple therapy would dig into the details of the relationship very, very swiftly.
Uh, and that would, of course, make the betrayed partner feel like she was doing something wrong, um, that was the, the reason for her partner's betrayal.
Um, the, the focus would very much be on relationship deficits and relationship repair.
And this made me deeply uncomfortable for, for quite a number of years because, uh, you know, I, I think as a clinician, I was feeling into betrayed partners' discomfort.
And, and I was, I was working with principles aligned with the model before I trained in the model because of my work with narcissistic abuse survivors.
So n- now that I've done this training and when I started to work with what I intuitively felt to be right and true, I could see that the outcomes for those couples and for those betrayed partners were so much better, that, that there was so much more truth, so much more hope, so much more validation for them of their experience.
And I didn't have this sense that somehow I was working with pieces of the, the puzzle that are real because, of course, relationships do have deficits [laughs] and, um, i- in, in every relationship, each partner is responsible for aspects, uh, of, of what is happening and what is going wrong.
But those deficits and those problems are not the reason for sexual deception, and they do not excuse sexual deception.
And the wonderful thing about this model is that I am able to say to couples and to betrayed partners, "You know, two things can be true at the same time," right? [laughs] That there may have been problems in your relationship.
There may be very, very deep, uh, th- very, very, very sad reasons for- The betraying partner's choices, but at the same time, the other thing that's true is that those reasons and those problems do not count as excuses for the sexual deception.
There's something really, uh, amazing about hearing you describe that journey because when I speak to many betrayed partners through this lens, they describe this experience of, um, almost having this, uh, internal knowledge, internal experience of something, but not having the language for it.
They hear Omar talking or, or maybe even my podcast now, and it's like, "That's the thing.
That's, that's what I've been feeling and experiencing internally, and that validates it." And so it's really interesting to hear you describing almost, like, a similar experience from a clinician perspective.
You could tell something was missing, and then once you heard the words for it, it, it kind of slotted into place.
And so as a couple therapist, I would often meet couples who had perhaps been in therapy initially together, and the therapy had broken down and failed.
And I would hear these stories of how traditional couple therapy was pushing these couples to make decisions about their relationships really quickly, um, pushing partners to forgive really quickly, and pushing for repair, and also how traditional couple therapy would dig into the details of the relationship very, very swiftly.
Uh, and that would, of course, make the betrayed partner feel like she was doing something wrong, um, that was the, the reason for her partner's betrayal.
Um, the, the focus would very much be on relationship deficits and relationship repair.
And this made me deeply uncomfortable for, for quite a number of years because, uh, you know, I, I think as a clinician, I was feeling into betrayed partners' discomfort.
And, and I was, I was working with principles aligned with the model before I trained in the model because of my work with narcissistic abuse survivors.
So n- now that I've done this training and when I started to work with what I intuitively felt to be right and true, I could see that the outcomes for those couples and for those betrayed partners were so much better, that, that there was so much more truth, so much more hope, so much more validation for them of their experience.
And I didn't have this sense that somehow I was working with pieces of the, the puzzle that are real because, of course, relationships do have deficits [laughs] and, um, i- in, in every relationship, each partner is responsible for aspects, uh, of, of what is happening and what is going wrong.
But those deficits and those problems are not the reason for sexual deception, and they do not excuse sexual deception.
And the wonderful thing about this model is that I am able to say to couples and to betrayed partners, "You know, two things can be true at the same time," right? [laughs] That there may have been problems in your relationship.
There may be very, very deep, uh, th- very, very, very sad reasons for- The betraying partner's choices, but at the same time, the other thing that's true is that those reasons and those problems do not count as excuses for the sexual deception.
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