Unless there's only one CEO job and there's one VP.

Yeah.

But you know, in most cases I would say, you know, being able to build trust and learn how to work and collaborate together, get you better outcomes.

And if you're just negatively optimizing for your own self-interest.

that said you know survivor is a microcosm of the real world like the underlying dynamics the way that people respond under pressure the way they kind of build alliances all that stuff it's the same kind of dynamics that play in the real world so what i've learned from survivor is that you know there are different ways you can play the game one of the most important things is just being adaptable like you know, depending, like I used to think there was like a static form of leadership, like, you know, the, the kind of Western model of like the decisive, confident leader who can just like make the right call and move very quickly.

And the reality is that like leadership is very contingent.

It's very like adaptable based on the circumstances.

I don't think my mom would be watching this.

You know, strategy and trying to maximize results.

One thing I used is a strategy called tit for tat.

You start off being nice, and as long as the other person's nice, you keep being nice.

But you don't take crap, right? [laughs] Like, if the other person tries to, like, hurt you, you retaliate.

But if the other person starts working with you again, you don't hold grudges.

You start cooperating with them again.

Plus people like Survivor 13 winner, Yul Kwon, the former management consultant.

Survivor is basically a show about group dynamics and interpersonal relationships.

Did something happen along the way? What happened to turn you into such an achiever?

[chuckles] You know, honestly, I think a lot of it was I just wanted to be normal.

Growing up, I had a lot of anxiety.

I had pretty severe OCD to the point where I would wash my hands, like, twenty times a day.

I had this obsession with even numbers.

And I think the thing that probably was the most debilitating was when I was in elementary school, a lot of the older kids would pick on some of the younger kids, and it got to the point where they would hide in the bathroom, and when one of the younger kids would come in, they would try to grab the kid and hold him against the wall while the other boys would take turns urinating on them.

And, you know, that was just, like, a crazy traumatic thing.

I've always been curious, how hard is it on Survivor? Walk us through the process of how you get from the door of the plane to, in your case, one of the Cook Islands, and then can you tell us how hard it is physically and, and what makes it not so hard or really hard physically and emotionally?

Did something happen along the way? What happened to turn you into such an achiever? Yeah.

You know, honestly, I think a lot of it was I just wanted to be normal.

Growing up, I had a lot of anxiety.

I had pretty severe OCD to the point where I would wash my hands like 20 times a day.

I had this obsession with even numbers.

And I think the thing that probably was the most debilitating was When I was in elementary school, a lot of the older kids would pick on some of the younger kids.

And it got to the point where they would hide in the bathroom.

So what do they do to you and how did you respond? Oh, man, it was