So now if a project manager is sitting there and they receive the signals, but they really want to try their leadership skills, I guess, or become a leader, what are some of the things they should be trying themselves? Maybe skills, maybe some activities or anything that you would recommend?

Yeah.

So the first thing I might think about is broadening scope, which is whichever area you own right now, which area you're working with, what are the adjacent areas to the thing that you're working on? And what is your perspective or opinion about how those areas should function? Now, there's going to be people in those areas, hopefully, sometimes.

And so the trick becomes, how do you influence outside of your core teams? How do I influence a fellow PM? How do I influence a more senior technical leader? How do I influence my manager's peer? Those are the skills and those are the activities I would encourage them to think about is, okay, you've got your core thing.

It's going well.

Let's say you're getting the things done.

You're having the impact.

What's your opinion on those? How helpful they are? And does it even make sense? Because some of them are pretty expensive.

What's the advice you give to people? Because I think one of the challenges is how do I make it feel natural to ask someone to be my mentor or sponsor? How did you accidentally find people earlier in career? And how were you more intentional about it later? You know, what are the lessons that we might be able to share with our audience members

seeking it? The first thing that I think about is why someone would be interested in being your mentor or your sponsor.

I think mentorship is a bit more advice giving.

It's a bit more the mentor wants to give back.

It's a bit more selfless in a way.

It helps a mentor's career, but for the most part, they're doing it because they enjoy helping people develop.

Sponsors, on the other hand, are not so selfless.

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