So I want you to kind of open the floor around that conversation, too.

Yeah, totally.

I mean, it's so interesting.

I feel like you've named so many interesting elements there, which like I think this concept of patronage is so interesting as well, where it's like I wonder as well when we think about how we like language certain things.

It's like I think about this with like a platform like Social Life as an example.

Right.

And I get this question a lot with folks who are who are starting memberships and things like that, which obviously Substack is kind of similar to that.

It's very minimalist, but now I feel like I'm not doing enough.

So Xanthe, if your business were to drag you to couples therapy, or if you were to take your business to couples therapy, uh, what would it be all about?

Yeah.

So very, um, kind of in line with the leisure ethic conversation, which is, are we having fun here? And the conversation around, like, does this feel good? Does this feel like pleasure? And really, like, the conversation around work being very hard or work being something that we need to almost struggle with, that's definitely been a journey that I have been on.

So I have had ...

My business now is about eight years old, [laughs] and it has seen many different shapes.

I have run a full scope creative agency, dismantled that agency, moved more into the education space, shifted a little bit the way that my brand is positioned to be more of a ...

Like, first it was more of a duo, me and my husband, and then it was more of a full team, and now it's mostly just me.

So what would you say to someone who's, like, hearing this and says like, "Oh, wow, this, like, really resonates"?

baby was gonna get stabbed by knives falling from the ceiling and like she genuinely thought that and like go went and like ripped her baby out of the crib and was like and this was like a real scenario so when i was reading this and she was you can see and experience her not connecting with her babies i was like oh she's having postpartum right because there's a big bit of like

dissociation that can happen where it's like this baby isn't mine this baby's evil like that kind of thing and um, which is super interesting.

And yeah, I mean, so I was like, because then she started kind of hinting about like finding the mic and finding like thinking that maybe, so basically what happens with the book is like some clues are kind of delivered where you start realizing like, okay, she's supposed to be in the 1800s, but And all signs point to yes, but then there's like these little like kind of glimpses of like modernity that don't really make sense.

And so it's interesting because I was like, you know, is it a setup? Is it some kind of like orchestrated reality show, which is something that she kind of alludes to throughout it.

But basically, yeah, like ultimately the big twist or like the big like reveal is that she comes to this inflection point where she gets like really like viciously canceled.

Like it's not just like a casual, it's like national television.

And her level of fame and notoriety exceeds just influencership because she's also married to the son of a man who's running for president.

to me at all I think the interesting lens is like what we're talking about with the misogynistic layer of yeah like why don't we call men influencers we call them you know what I find interesting too we call them by their handles like we actually say their full name we'll be like oh chef whatever or blah blah blah this first and last name like we we say it where when we talk about women it is very much like oh yeah that influencer and then we say their name which I find interesting.

As you talk about what would some of the first steps of cultivating that look like people always want to know what do i do and how long is it going to take which is hilarious because my toddler is number one well my toddler he's four now he's not a toddler but his number one question about everything is whether we're going to sleep or whether we're he's going to school is how long is it going to take So when people ask me, how long is it going to take? I always hear it in Neil's voice, like, mommy, how long is it going to take? I'm like, as long as it takes, you know what I mean?

Wait, I am about that.

I am so about that.

I'm really obsessed with time.

I always want to know how long everything's going to take.

And I like make so many decisions in my life based on how long they're going to take.

It's so jokes.

And I think people get really stuck in like, what's the strategy? How would you even like go about cultivating that for yourself?

What are your thoughts on this and in general, like viral offers being really buzzy right now?

Yeah, so it's really interesting.

And this is something that I've been noticing on, obviously, Jessie Jean is a bigger scale because the numbers are bigger and her audience is bigger.

But I'm also seeing a lot of viral offers now, even circulating on threads where it's maybe like a smaller creator, but just a lot of people get that thing and the word of mouth kind of carries it.

It almost like takes on a life of its own.

And then of course there's obviously like the, the, the, I guess like, I don't want to say follow because it's not necessarily inherently negative, but then there's like the second wave of like everyone talking about the thing.

And so Jessie Jean has had a really interesting one because it's like, not only did she obviously fucking crush it with the launch, but then also she became like the talk of the town and everyone started talking about it more.

showing up on our feeds is people even asking each other, like, ah, I kind of want to just join to see what the buzz is about versus thinking like, do I want to learn how

And I'm curious, like, from your standpoint in the online leadership space, like, what are you seeing happening in your communities that people are questioning if they should leave or not, and, like, what are your thoughts when deciding to leave or stay on a platform?

Yeah, and I think, like, what you said there actually was so, so, so important.

Like, it, the, to just highlight one of the notes which is that you left and I left both from a place of, like, this is actually out of alignment for me, and the ethics of it all is, like, the icing on the cake.

Like, great, I don't wanna be there anyway, kinda thing.

But where it becomes actually really challenging is when you're like, well, actually I do wanna be here and I hate what they stand for.

Like, this is actually working really well for my business, or I'm actually really enjoying this process, and yet I feel at odds with the messaging that is kind of coming out around this space.

And so that's, those are the people who I'm, you know, speaking with and supporting in this moment, which is, like, this question of, well, you know, what if it is giving a lot to me? Um, and there's obviously a lot of, like, m- I think a lot of, like, moral debate with that where it's like, am I being selfish centering my own business or center- centering my own success without thinking about the impact that this might have on the collective? And to that I always say, like, we ourselves have a positive impact on the collective, like, by being present in a space and by creating in a space.

And so that's quite interesting too, is that theory that, like, we're just seeing justice being played out, quote unquote, "in a different way."