So I want you to talk about why that is and why you think like belief is just a bad way of understanding what it means to be evangelical.

Yeah, I certainly think that theological language matters to evangelicals and to any historian who wants to understand the evangelical movement.

So to be clear, it's not that language of belief shouldn't play a part in how we understand this movement.

there are all kinds of issues that I raise with, with Bebbington's approach and with what people have done with Bebbington, right? There's, there's what he wrote in like what, 12 pages.

And then there's what everyone else does in the wake of that.

When it comes to what everyone else does in the wake of it, I am, um, really perplexed by the ways in which these very vague phrases, very vague, um, terms, right? You mentioned, right.

Um, the importance of the Bible, having a kind of particular, Bebbington's language is having a particular regard for the Bible.

And one of the things we found out talking to Kristen and reading her book is just how much shit she went through in her life and abuse and was really misused and, you know, was really a brilliant, thoughtful person and could have had a lot of potential that was probably, um, squandered not always by her choice so i feel a lot of pity and sympathy for her position nonetheless she did a great deal of damage in the world and discovering this about her just seems significant and so part i guess part of what i want you to tell me is is it significant should should it be significant um and and like how did you find this out because it's a fascinating story

But why do you think that that explanation of evangelical positions has remained so prevalent?

Yeah.

Well, for listeners who are interested, I wrote a little article on this concept for The Eminent Frame.

It's called They Tell the Bible So.

And I developed this concept of hermeneutical determinism very much with scholarship on evangelicalism in mind.

But I'm very curious to know what other scholars working in other religious contexts, what they make of this concept and its its utility or not, or non-utility for them in their own work.

So as I define it, hermeneutical determinism is when scholars attribute the actions of their religious subjects to the interpretive principles or interpretive approaches that their own subjects purport to apply when they read their scriptures.

Again, no spoilers, but And without giving anything away, or I guess everything away, can you say something about what that failure looked like and why it matters for how we think about the so-called culture wars?