It's interesting that you think in the same way that Helen Ziller was explaining her position.

You know, the bigger parties have some benefit, actually, out of these fragmented parties in a perverse way.

In that, for instance, for the ANC, it has enabled it – to avoid having to take responsibility, avoid having to take accountability for its decline.

So there's an endless variety of new players that can be bought or convinced or handed positions of patronage that are very attractive to them and that enables, for instance, the ANC to continue playing remaining the governing powerful force in a governing coalition with the benefit of tiny parties that have virtually no electoral representation.

So it's a kind of an inversion of the power of the actual pyramid.

And there's nothing wrong with a proportional representation system.

I mean, the whole idea is to make it possible to have the widest range of opinions uh that actually exist represented in parliament but the whole idea is not in order to create a situation where the entire governing structure becomes um just unbalanced and prone to sometimes malign influences.

These little guys, I suppose you have to decide who are ego projects and who might have a say in the future.

But how do you change things so that this is no longer, because it appears from what you've said now, it really is democracy gone wrong.

I think it's widely recognized that for all its good intentions, the proportional representation system that we have needs adaptation.

In fact, I think both the DA and the ANC at various stages have drafted possible legislation to deal with it.

But that's a slow process.

I mean, given our president and his notorious lack of ability to reach any kind of decision, We'd probably have to have another inquiry, question of inquiry.

But the solution is really simple.

Don't vote for people who are no-hopers or clearly chances trying to game the system.

What's all this threshold stuff?

the intimation, I think, that people might draw from column number one on Buzz News.

I think what I'm trying to say about Zuma is that whether he is dead or alive, and I can almost not imagine the political firmament in South Africa without Zuma.

You know, he reminds me of one of those... those leathery tortoises that live for 200 years.

I mean, he has an indestructible air about him.

So the thought of him in extremists is a very sad one, whether one likes what he's done or he has shaped our politics dramatically.

remarkably, both when he was president, before he was president, and after he's been president.

So what I'm saying is that whether he is dead or whether if he dies in the immediate future, he will continue to shape South African politics.

Uh, if, if Jacob Zuma were to live to an even riper old age, you get, you get the sense, do you get the sense that Duduzani's star will keep rising?

I- it would seem at this stage that Duduzani is the, um, the, the, the chosen successor in this dynastic, uh, party, uh, which, which Zuma r- rules with an iron hand, much like a sort of medieval monarch, uh, absolute right of kings.

He, he appoints and he disappoints as he wishes.

So it's clear that Duduzani is, uh, uh, um, sitting at the right hand.

But, um, I, I watched that, I watched his s- speech at, at, at the BizNews conference, and it's the first time I've really got a sense of him.

Uh, I, and I agree with you.

He was very impressive.

Uh, is, does that surprise you, that Gayton is, is siding with MK when the other politicians, we had, uh, Dean Macpherson saying, "I will never, uh, never work with MK in KwaZulu-Natal"? And the ANC seem to be, well, they seem to be a bit of a spent force in the province, but they too, uh, are, are not exactly warm towards this Zuma dynasty party.

Listen to the full interview on the BizNews Daily Edge.

The, the talk within some party circles is that he's very keen on an ambassadorship, uh, to some vaguely interesting country with, which, with a reasonable standard of living.

You know, good public transport and, um, and nice weather.

Um, I don't know that's true.

I mean, there, there's a, you know, ANC has put out many of its politicians to pasture as, as ambassadors.

Uh, we, we could do worse than Steenhuisen.

Um, but, uh, it would have to be signed off by the, the DA, and it would have to be signed off by, by the ANC.

So can we expect a, a court brook, uh, kind of, uh, consequence here, where he suddenly sees the light and joins the ANC? Uh, would, is, is that something that you would put in his future? Because surely to goodness, if the, if, if the DA has to sign off on an ambassadorship and the, the damage he's done to the party, you've got to believe that there are enough, a balance of power in the DA to say, "No way." And certainly their voters and [laughs] their donors and, uh, would also be saying, "What the heck are you guys doing if you, you stand for principles and rights?" So what, uh, would it surprise you to see him popping up at another political party?

But, uh, is he that kind of politician that shoots first and thinks about the consequences later? Because I think, uh, he's not that old, is he?

As it happens, it's his 50th birthday today, so, uh, it's, it's, it's not, it's not the best way to be launching the, the, the last couple of decades of your career, uh, by, um, trying, by des- essentially destroying your own job and, and, and doing grievous damage to his, to his party, the party that he ostensibly wishes to succeed, and severing personal relationships hither and thither.

I mean, he, he has, uh, his attack on Tony Leon is extraordinary.

His, um, words for his dear friend Gordon Hill-Lewis, uh, are, um, scathing.

It's, he's an impetuous man.

Uh, he, he, he does, he does fire first and think later often.

Um, but I just think it, he, it, he really struggles with the humiliation and, um, I think he's also ill-advised.

How, how much damage has he done to the party, William?

Listen to the full interview on today's BizNews Daily Edge.

I think the dama- damage is enormous.

I, I do- look, we'll only know when the social, when, when, when the, um, the polling research is done.

Uh, there, there are two possibilities.

I think firstly, there's a huge sense that, and, and this is how the DA and, um, organizations like News24 who are very sympathetic to the ANC, this is how the ANC and the D- and, and, um, its supportive media are, are, are pitching it is the DA is, uh, John Steenhuisen has revealed that the DA is no different from the ANC.

It's exploitative, it's, uh, fundamentally dishonest, it's in- it is open to engaging in state capture.

Uh, so the squeaky clean image of the DA, which is utterly essential to its, uh, to its, uh, persona, to its brand, it's the, it, that is what it- its brand rests on, has been tainted by S- by Steenhuisen.