How significant do you think it is?

Well, it's m- more significant politically than militarily.

I mean, it's a limited, uh, refueling capacity for Saudi jets that will allow Saudi jets to stay in the air, uh, for longer, and thereby have the opportunity to shoot down any, uh, missiles or other projectiles coming from Yemen, uh, into Saudi Arabia.

Um, it's significant politically because the Saudis have asked for help from a, uh, an ally, which they'd already done with the United States, and the United States had f- refused.

So, um, uh, it's important for Britain to support Saudi Arabia in this.

Uh, we have our own national interests at stake.

We have a national interest in freedom of navigation through the Bab-el-Mandab Straits and, uh, the, and the Red Sea.

I mean, this is a very sort of airy question to ask you, but do you get a sense of what it is the Saudis are after in terms of support from, um, their allies? Because I, I just wonder whether it's clear if the Saudis know what their strategy is against the Houthis, how to beat them back.

I remember that well.

It's the Treasury hasn't changed.

But it is indicative that the chancellor, and you can ascribe all sorts of political reasons behind that, when you get the chancellor saying, we want you to buy British, she's making two points here.

One is the survival of this government, the government's ability to meet the various demands on it.

will be a factor of how well the economy grows.

But not just how well the economy grows, it's the nature of the growth.

And what they want is growth in the UK.

How does that play into negotiations?

Mm.

And, and in reality, as the war's gone on, we've-- this is not the first time.

Storm Shadow, uh, missiles we allowed the Ukrainians to use to hit Russia.

So the drones are not a, a, a, a step up.

I think a lot of people are saying, and people who sort of know Russia better than me, saying this is more for the domestic audience, a bit of bluster from Putin, a bit to sh-show his audience that they're, the Russians are up against it.

They're up against Western, a Western conspiracy, and poor old Russians are being attacked, and the Ukrainian terrorists are having a go at them.

So, I mean, th-they-- he knows how unpopular the war is becoming, and the more the war is taken to ordinary Russians, you know, through the Welbury attacks, and if Welbury collapses as it seems to be on the verge, uh, uh, that would have a big impact on, on ordinary Russians.

[laughs]

Do you share his view that this isn't in any way a diminution of Washington's authority in the region?

I don't quite accept his analysis on that.

I think part of the evolution of these regional powers is a function of the United States playing a different role.

Saudi Arabia relied on a very strong security alliance with the United States for decades.

And that alliance and the American commitment to the Middle East began to look a bit less firm well before Donald Trump began with Obama, Trump won Biden.

So America's commitment, they began to hedge their bets.

And we saw even before Trump, even before the war against Iran, that Saudi Arabia, countries like Turkey and Egypt were playing more of a regional role, taking more responsibility for their own defense.

Do you think that is a factor in this?

Mm.

Uh, I mean, it, it's all about oil.

Uh, I mean, the Saudis are trying to balance, obviously, their relationship with the United States.

Uh, but a- the Russians are important to them for oil.

Uh, when the Russians joined OPEC, it became OPEC+.

It had a little bit more heft, a, a little bit more credibility.

But now with the Emiratis pulling out, uh, of, uh, of OPEC, uh, the Russ- the, the Saudis will be very keen to keep close to the, uh, uh, keep close to the Russians on oil matters.

Um, William, as far as it's possible to tell of what we know, uh, of the case itself, despite everybody attempting to, uh, impose their preferred political subtext upon it, does it actually in-indicate anything except that a couple of officers made a sequence of extremely poor decisions in a stressful situation?

He knows the kingdom well and the effect our own can have there.

They love it.

I mean, they regard the British royal family as the top of the tree.

In the, in the Gulf, we always wanted the royal family to come more often than, uh, perhaps the Foreign Office [laughs] would, would allow them.

Uh, when I was there, Prince Charles, as the, uh, crown prince, came twice.

Uh, and he, he, over a couple of decades, he visited Saudi Arabia 12 times, and he was always a great visitor.

And the point is, and I think the point of Prince William going, is that he will reach a broad cross-section of the Saudi royal family, and of course, the Saudi royal family is massive.

How so when we compare it to, you know, a decade ago when the late queen was, was chatting with his predecessor?