But how do you deal with something like that? What does that mean?

Well, I think, and it's part of our immediate history in so many different ways.

My great-grandparents came to South Africa.

My great-grandfather came here around about 1900, 1899, 1900.

He came because of the pogroms in Russia.

There were Jewish communities in Eastern Europe, and they faced pogroms.

He came here as a 17-year-old, and he landed in the Cape, made his way up north.

Why is it that you decided to be strong in the face of this hatred?

What do you say to that argument? Because I'm sure you faced it many times.

Yes, I did.

Look, in terms of the response of this from the community, wherever I went, I found and felt tremendous support from so many people.

There were people who raised this point that you raised, don't poke the bear.

And my answer to that is you don't become safe through weakness.

You find peace and safety and security through strength.

And you see a response of saying, well, we're just going to hide and we're going to pretend this didn't happen and we're going to hope that you don't notice us.

And so I'm in complete agreement with you there that without this kind of an understanding of why we have these rights and really at the basis is the kind of Judeo, to use Jordan Peterson language, Judeo-Christian belief in the kind of spark of divinity in every human being, you actually aren't going to understand why it is fundamental we keep that and why that is the kind of primary, it is the thing that allows us to have every other right, is this view of the world.