Other than that, how does a community and an individual, other than maybe some of those factors that you named, determine appropriateness of an apology? And I guess maybe it's case by case, but I wonder, how do you give people guidance and wisdom on that?

Yeah, it's a good question because it can be hard to discern that.

And I think one of the things that I believe is important to look for and what I encourage others to look for if they're receiving an apology, also those who are giving an apology, what to look for is if there is a willingness to surrender all of these defenses and these attempts at that propping up a certain image that a good healing apology won't be filled with self-promotion and excuses and justifications and kind of just be pointing back to institution or the person who's apologizing, but will center those who have been harmed and will center the truth and focus on amends.

So I think that is the most important indicator is what's being surrendered and what's being clung to.

And I talk about this a lot, but I think it's really important because in a sense, it's the starting point.

whether or not a person or institution is willing to surrender their own defenses is critical.

And it's sort of like this, if you've ever watched America Ninja Warrior, where they're doing this obstacle course and they have to jump to this rope and then jump to the next rope.

that.